What's wrong with the M3 GTR?

[pplater]

I always seem to be seeing people alluding to personal problems with the M3 GTR.

Whats wrong with it?

Is it the fact it has a V8?

Or because of the wide-body kit?

The Aero Package?

WHAT???

[Chucky]

Who's got a problem with it?

[Dani Filth]

i know who .. the main problem would be ..
IT'S a Touring CAR

[Audi R8R]

The reason the fuss was kicked up was because it's not actually homologated. BMW don't actually produce a 3 series with a V8, but they do with the 5 series (M5). Porsche kicked up a stink because BMW were beating them.

Why BMW didn't just make the GTR around the M5, I don't know! It would have saved so much hassle...

[marcush.]

maybe ,because the M5 is quite a big ship???

[hindy]

The reason the fuss was kicked up was also because the V8 in the GTR wasn't a production engine - rather one built specifically for racing and not offered in any of their range!

I was one of the few people who saw the 'roadgoing' GTR that was presented to the ACO as proof of BMW's intent of building the street version.

The car was awesome, and I heard it start. However it had no rear seats just a box like bench, (the floor was raised to accomodate the rear suspsension), carbon roof panel, full length flat undertray with rear diffuser...and no radiator cooling fan! - Some road car!

Now if BMW would just sleeve down the V8 a bit and stick into the back of a P2 car... hmmmn


JH

[alfasud]

Originally posted by pplater
I always seem to be seeing people alluding to personal problems with the M3 GTR.

Whats wrong with it?

I think it depends on the person objecting and the problem tends to fall into three areas....

1) Unlike the GT3 and the Ferrari 360GT it's not based on a real production car.... for all the reasons listed by hindy. The ACO GT class should be about cars that are based on a genuine road going production GT cars.... there is already an LMP900 class for prototypes.

2) The BMW M3 is too much like a V8 powered 3 series touring car, rather than a true GT.... this group feels that GT racing should be for genuine GT cars with 2 seats (or 2+2). Not 2 door touring cars.

3) It's a BMW..... members of this group claim to belong to groups 1 or 2, but would probably have no objection if the same car carried the name TVR or Aston Martin.

As for using the M5... now that's clearly a touring car, rather than a GT..... as well as being a big ship!

[cybersdorf]

Ah yes, the old "what makes a true GT" discussion.

Is a Judd-powered Ferrari still a Ferrari?

[marcush.]

Interstingly the Z8 or Z3 Bimmer would have fitted quite well into Gt Racing..so the ACO and others were right to raise some questions.
Of course not even BMW would try to make an attempt to convert the new 6series to a racecar .

[Cynic]

It'a the old arguement of what constitutes a GT car, and it falls into two parts:
Technical - BMW simply took a stock 3-series shell and bolted an unhomologated engine and a set of flared wheel arches onto it. They did allegedly produce the necessary number of road cars, but they were basically the race car with number plates attached.
Heritage - probably the real bone of contention. Prior to the GTR the M3 had always been considered, and raced as a tourer. Does simply adding a bigger engine and beefing up the body make it a GT? Answers on a postcard please.

[Aysedasi]

I didn't ought to post in this thread.

But its a case of red rags.....

Its a touring car.

[Truckosaurus]

Originally posted by marcush.
Of course not even BMW would try to make an attempt to convert the new 6series to a racecar .

I don't know, an M6 powered by the forthcoming V10 500bhp (as standard) engine would be an interesting challenger.

[spin_doctor]

Any car that is as successful as the GTR is bound to be complained about. Other makes have produced similar "homologation specials" and had similar grumbling. One additional school of thought is that some of those sports car purists don't enjoy the idea of any "Touring Car" that out performs their favorite 2 seater.

The Simple truth of modern racing is that unless the class specifies production ONLY parts, as in: any car in the class must exist in 5000 units or more and EXACTLY as raced, you are going to have racing versions that enjoy "unfair" advantages. For example see the Speed Challenge GT series cars.

One other reality is racing is done to sell cars. The various makers will arrange the rules to suit themselves as much as possible. The ACO, FIA, and SCCA ALL listen when the Manufacturers speak even if that is not always in the interest of "fair" racing.

[Dauntless]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Ah yes, the old "what makes a true GT" discussion.

Is a Judd-powered Ferrari still a Ferrari?

Is a Ferrari-powered Dallara still a Ferrari...?

[JAG]

Originally posted by spin_doctor
Any car that is as successful as the GTR is bound to be complained about. Other makes have produced similar "homologation specials" and had similar grumbling. One additional school of thought is that some of those sports car purists don't enjoy the idea of any "Touring Car" that out performs their favorite 2 seater.

The Simple truth of modern racing is that unless the class specifies production ONLY parts, as in: any car in the class must exist in 5000 units or more and EXACTLY as raced, you are going to have racing versions that enjoy "unfair" advantages. For example see the Speed Challenge GT series cars.

One other reality is racing is done to sell cars. The various makers will arrange the rules to suit themselves as much as possible. The ACO, FIA, and SCCA ALL listen when the Manufacturers speak even if that is not always in the interest of "fair" racing.

The point is BMW could have racesd AND dominated, purpose built V8 and all, IF they had built the requisite number of road cars. The fact is they did not, and apparently never had any intention to!

Luckily for BMW the next generation M3/M4 will have a V8 as standard, so there will be no need for an homologation special like the M3 GTR.

[hubert]

The M3 GTR was superbly quick. When I saw them run @ Laguna Seca some years back, they were a sight to see -- sounded like Champ cars, and went like stink...






Too bad Porsche whined so much, and BMW never actually released the road cars; it would have been interesting to see things turn out ...

[429CJ]

This is 2 door coupé GT.

[HJC]

If anybody has more pics of the M3 GTR, please post the links here. For the moment I have 1267

Hubert, love your pictures man!

[hubert]

Originally posted by HJC
If anybody has more pics of the M3 GTR, please post the links here. For the moment I have 1267

Hubert, love your pictures man!

HJC, Thanks. Here are a few more.

[HJC]

Thank you very much!

[Spyder_Monkey]

I think what burns me the most about the M3 is, like JAG said, they could have easily made and sold enough road versions, but for whatever reason, didn't. They knew they had an illigal car, but didn't seem to care. They half-heartedly built ONE sorta-road version at the end of the season, and expected that to be enough.

As far as whining from Porsche, I think Tom Millner more than made up for it in World Challenge.

[therealdeal]

the new M4 will be a 380hp V-8, you dont think they will put that in GT do ya?

porsche killer!!

my BMW is my pride

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by 429CJ
This is 2 door coupé GT.

No - 2 door coupé shopping TC.

[cybersdorf]

This is 2 door fast car. Therefore it is 2 door car for Le Mans. GT/TC/Sedan/whatever distinction is 2 door bull - IMHO. They are performance cars, let them perform. I don't care how many doors or what body shape.

The one car I don't want to see in road car based endurance racing (prototypes are different) is the Unhomologated Loophole Special that wipes the floor with the competition, and encourages other manufacturers to build illegal cars. So in this respect, the BMW scenario was a victory for the rulemakers over the manufacturers. BMW just went that one step too far.

BMW apparently did not think they could/should sell the GTR as a road car (they certainly never intended to sell any in the first place); if they are smart they will put the new coupé through the proper homologation process. Personally, I believe they have learned their lesson now. And I don't see the ACO turning that car away as "not in the spirit because it's just a 2 door shopping cart".

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
This is 2 door fast car. Therefore it is 2 door car for Le Mans. GT/TC/Sedan/whatever distinction is 2 door bull - IMHO. They are performance cars, let them perform. I don't care how many doors or what body shape.

The one car I don't want to see in road car based endurance racing (prototypes are different) is the Unhomologated Loophole Special that wipes the floor with the competition, and encourages other manufacturers to build illegal cars. So in this respect, the BMW scenario was a victory for the rulemakers over the manufacturers. BMW just went that one step too far.

BMW apparently did not think they could/should sell the GTR as a road car (they certainly never intended to sell any in the first place); if they are smart they will put the new coupé through the proper homologation process. Personally, I believe they have learned their lesson now. And I don't see the ACO turning that car away as "not in the spirit because it's just a 2 door shopping cart".

Your opinion Cy. As always, you're entitled to it like anyone else.

That includes me too. I do care about doors and body shape. My approach is probably rather less considered than most, I accept, but there are plenty who, like me, do not consider this car to be a GT car.