LMP 3 Status in North America

[Bob Baldwin]

Having attended Sebring I was hoping to see a P-3 on display if it was there I missed it .
Seems like the people I did talk to Officials , A few media people were totally lost on the topic.
Not withstanding all the Gibberish going on with P-2 and DPI . Where are we at with the Potential for P-3's running in North America ?:
What is the latest news with the Riley P-3 ?
Also are the P-3's going to be Dead in Europe ?
Any imput "FACTS " would be appreciated

[Deleted]

There's already a LMP3 thread where this could be slotted in. But to clarify:

LMP3 Eligibility 2016

Europe
ELMS
French GT
vdev
Road to Le Mans LM Support Race
Dutch Supercar Challenge
Dunlop Prototype Series (maybe)
Probably some misc other endurance races

Asia
ASLMS
ASLMS Sprint
Abu Dhabi 12 Hours

North America
Thunderhill 25 Hours

Grids in Europe are full, I mean huge fields but unfortunately only packed with spec Onroak/"Ligier" cars with some odd Riley in the mix. There might be more Rileys later when they get the supply going (even the sole Murphy entry in ELMS is getting delayed) but the IMSA idiots not daring to ditch LMPC probably doomed them in the long run. Ginetta is dying but still entered for something this year by single team. ADESS status is unknown after the lackluster performances in Asia and withdrawn entries. Dome doesn't exist yet.

As said not coming to IMSA because they are stubborn. But last year ACO speculated on possible future independent LMP3 sprint series in North America, probably like the new Sepang sprint series.

[MaskedRacer]

I agree IMSA has done too much to cater to these LMPC teams. And they have been the same teams running since the ALMS days with the except of JDC/Miller who showed up in 2014, so they are not new kids on the block either now. There is ZERO growth there. Lets look at the teams: Starworks is going to DPI. Core runs LMPC on the side from their main GTLM effort. What you got left is PR1 Matheson, JDC Miller, BAR1, and whatever the name of the team that runs the #38 car is. Are they so important that you have to keep a dinosaur category around?

Imagine if there was no LMPC. First less off courses and yellows. Less of cars getting in the GT cars way. Less of a eye soar of an old open topped looking car running around. And most importantly with just P, GTLM, GTD you can get easier BoP between the categories. LMPC upsets the apple card. You don't have to artificially hold down GTLM which I think IMSA might be doing so far this year.

You don't need a pro-am prototype category anymore. Yes LMP3 is popular in Europe now but WEC does not feel the need to have them. Why should IMSA? Especially if they want maxmize the chance to get DPI entries. If you want to run a prototype run DPI, if you want to be pro-am. Got GT3. They are naturally built for that.

[Bob Baldwin]

Chiana : Beside Thunderhill . I think that they can also be run with NASA ? and a southern Florida Group called FARA ? I think basicly either of these groups would find a class to fit it into .

Masked Racer : Totally agree with IMSA " Catering to the "PC TEAMS "

I guess if you are really into the Prototypes a Trip to Europe would be in order

Not sure what the PC CAR count was at Daytona or Sebring . Which would have been the 2 biggest events of the year for them

I did not get a chance to talk with Bill Riely so have no clue what is going on with his P-3 project

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

Chiana : Beside Thunderhill . I think that they can also be run with NASA ? and a southern Florida Group called FARA ? I think basicly either of these groups would find a class to fit it into .

Masked Racer : Totally agree with IMSA " Catering to the "PC TEAMS "

I guess if you are really into the Prototypes a Trip to Europe would be in order

Not sure what the PC CAR count was at Daytona or Sebring . Which would have been the 2 biggest events of the year for them

I did not get a chance to talk with Bill Riely so have no clue what is going on with his P-3 project

Thank you Mr. Baldwin. Yeah the LMPC teams have almost gotten everything that they have asked for from IMSA in the last few years. Amazing considering they bring nothing to the series at all. No ratings, no marketing, no sexy car appeal. Just some gentleman driver cash.

But you get gentleman driver cash in GTD too but at least there you get the appeal of having another manufacturer car like Ferrari, Audi, Porsche, Lambo, etc. You cant say that for LMPC and I think that will be the case for a proposed LMP3 too. Like I said before WEC did not see the need for it. IMSA should think the same way too. DPI, GTLM, and GT3 should be the class structure going forward.

[Deleted]

WEC couldn't have them even if they wanted because of the self-imposed 35 car full season limit.

[Hawker]

Hmmm . . . IIRC, the LMP3 test at the Glen certainly did not help those cars. IIRC, they were 9 seconds (per lap) slower than the PC cars (and slower than even GTD). That would seem to mean that it would be the slowest class - slower than both GT classes.

Yah think the guys that are writing the checks for the PC class might object to that? I certainly would . . . at least until the get the the LMP3 cars figured out (and faster). But then, unless one has actually written checks (funded a race team), that might be hard to understand.

[Deleted]

The reasons for that failed Ginetta test have already been gone through multiple times. And even if things HAD gone all smoothly to the point of actual consideration, IMSA A) shouldn't leave everything to hang on just one test and one make B) shouldn't care of the shown performances when they are all gonna be bopped to target pace anyway C) shouldn't ever listen to the LMPC team owners as from their perspective there is never reason to move up from their existing cheap spec rent cars. I've said it before but when it comes to spec categories, you do not listen to the people running the cars, because they are the most biased imaginable.

[Rcz]

Just put American crate engines in and throw them in the PC class.

[Bob Baldwin]

WHY arne't they running as a series SUPPORT event ?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

Thank you Mr. Baldwin. Yeah the LMPC teams have almost gotten everything that they have asked for from IMSA in the last few years. Amazing considering they bring nothing to the series at all. No ratings, no marketing, no sexy car appeal. Just some gentleman driver cash.

But you get gentleman driver cash in GTD too but at least there you get the appeal of having another manufacturer car like Ferrari, Audi, Porsche, Lambo, etc. You cant say that for LMPC and I think that will be the case for a proposed LMP3 too. Like I said before WEC did not see the need for it. IMSA should think the same way too. DPI, GTLM, and GT3 should be the class structure going forward.

Never heard of Jon Bennett, lets see, a team in PC and a team in GTLM, no the class never does anything for the series. No, it does not provide 6 to 10 prototype race cars to the grid and the associated revenue from them. Nor does it provide a place for up and coming drivers to pair with those gentlemen drivers to give us experienced pros of the future. Some of those actually paying to get a car to the grid choose to do so in a PC. So.....




L.P.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

WHY arne't they running as a series SUPPORT event ?

Rumor has it they were looked at for use in IMSA Lites but dismissed as too expensive for that level.

[Deleted]

And by giving spec single supplier Lites rights to Elan (Panoz) they please Don...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Never heard of Jon Bennett, lets see, a team in PC and a team in GTLM, no the class never does anything for the series. No, it does not provide 6 to 10 prototype race cars to the grid and the associated revenue from them. Nor does it provide a place for up and coming drivers to pair with those gentlemen drivers to give us experienced pros of the future. Some of those actually paying to get a car to the grid choose to do so in a PC. So.....




L.P.

I know you won't read this since you have me ignored, but you just managed to pick CORE which is indeed the only team that has ever originated from LMPC and to went somewhere else from there since 2010. Alright well in addition to Level 5, but Chief Tucker's money laundering business could've financed LMP1 at that point so it doesn't really count. Not great of a ladder class if you ask me.

It may provide 6-10 cars but they are cars most don't care crap about and which are in the way most of the time. The one making most money is again IMSA's dear spec partner Oreca. Btw, "Prototype race cars" is such funny terminology when we are talking of direct single spec environment, how does it make it 'prototype'? Even ACO's original "Formula Le Mans" title made more sense.

Those up and coming drivers could drive in CTSCC or one of the other billion IMSA support series, or I don't know, the other pro-am mandated category in the main series? And how ever did we manage before with zero proam classes?

And in any case, even if I'm just Clueless Chiana as per usual and all of these points of yours were the very finest arguments for retaining LMPC, they could all be said of LMP3 too. But with more.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Never heard of Jon Bennett, lets see, a team in PC and a team in GTLM, no the class never does anything for the series. No, it does not provide 6 to 10 prototype race cars to the grid and the associated revenue from them. Nor does it provide a place for up and coming drivers to pair with those gentlemen drivers to give us experienced pros of the future. Some of those actually paying to get a car to the grid choose to do so in a PC. So.....

6-10 cars that are a waste of space on the track. Can you imagine the % of FCY's have been caused by this category. You never mention that. When they ran at Kansas the attendance was 0. But the GT only race at VIR gets a nice big crowd. Also I'm sure many of those paying drivers could have found seats in GTD with no problem. Plus consider BoP/class speed issues it makes LMPC and the idea of a future LMP3 bring nothing but complications to a series that needs to cuts some dead weight since it is still stuck in a niche market right now. IMSA needs more mainstream appeal. Ford GTs, Ferarris, Corvettes, will help bring that. No Oreca FLM's or Ligiers JS P3s.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

6-10 cars that are a waste of space on the track. Can you imagine the % of FCY's have been caused by this category. You never mention that. When they ran at Kansas the attendance was 0. But the GT only race at VIR gets a nice big crowd. Also I'm sure many of those paying drivers could have found seats in GTD with no problem. Plus consider BoP/class speed issues it makes LMPC and the idea of a future LMP3 bring nothing but complications to a series that needs to cuts some dead weight since it is still stuck in a niche market right now. IMSA needs more mainstream appeal. Ford GTs, Ferarris, Corvettes, will help bring that. No Oreca FLM's or Ligiers JS P3s.

Well unfortunately for you it seems that IMSA, WSC and the participants in the PC class do not share that outlook.
If P3 were to meet the requirements of the PC class then it could very well be considered. Unfortunately it has a ways to go in order to do that.




L.P.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Well unfortunately for you it seems that IMSA, WSC and the participants in the PC class do not share that outlook.
If P3 were to meet the requirements of the PC class then it could very well be considered. Unfortunately it has a ways to go in order to do that.

You maybe right sir. Well the unfortunate part is that IMSA does not share my outlook. They have been giving the LMPC teams way too much respect. If they don't shorten their fuel tank size and allow them a maximum chance to win overall on a FOX network race at Lime Rock then that will be a sad day for the series.

IMSA's continued catering to LMPC teams is the biggest black eye and problem with the series I think along with its poor marketing. Not the P2/DP BoP that is fine.

P.S. Chiana has a interesting reply too

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

You maybe right sir. Well the unfortunate part is that IMSA does not share my outlook. They have been giving the LMPC teams way too much respect. If they don't shorten their fuel tank size and allow them a maximum chance to win overall on a FOX network race at Lime Rock then that will be a sad day for the series.

IMSA's continued catering to LMPC teams is the biggest black eye and problem with the series I think along with its poor marketing. Not the P2/DP BoP that is fine.

P.S. Chiana has a interesting reply too

That's absolutely hilarious, IMSA actually paying attention to their stakeholders is a black eye!



L.P.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

That's absolutely hilarious, IMSA actually paying attention to their stakeholders is a black eye!

LMPC teams are the stakeholders who are equivalent to the guys in the cheap seats at the sports arena compared to those who are paying for the lower bowl seats by the glass at a hockey game or courtside at a baseketball game as well as those who buy the luxury suites.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

LMPC teams are the stakeholders who are equivalent to the guys in the cheap seats at the sports arena compared to those who are paying for the lower bowl seats by the glass at a hockey game or courtside at a baseketball game as well as those who buy the luxury suites.

That's rather pompous coming from someone who spends nothing to field one. Hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to field a PC is FAR from cheap. That Dog don't hunt!







L.P.

[BrentJackson]

Horndawg has a point here, guys. Besides that, they could improve the LMPC chassis a long ways yet if the desire was there, which eventually there will be.

LMP3's chances in North America died with that test at Watkins Glen - they aren't coming, case closed, and the ACO are fools if they think they can get a standalone P3 series in North America - the market is already pretty saturated for sports car race series with IMSA and its feeder series and the Pirelli World Challenge. I'd be upgrading them (the FLM09s that is) with traction control, more downforce (and thus less amateur-driver screwups), the bodywork for the Oreca 03R with a few other choice improvements, better tires and a choice of Detroit V8 powerplants - Chevrolet LT1 (the new one from the C7 Corvette), Ford Coyote and Chrysler 392 Hemi, all tuned for approximately 520 horsepower. (Since the DPis are gonna be comfortably over 600 hp, the more beans shouldn't be too much of an issue.) The faster pace of these PC cars gets them out of the way of the GTLM boys, taking advantage of the faster pace of the DPis. The open tops don't bother me and evidently don't bother the people racing them, so let them ride if you ask me. Best of all, since the 03R is now obsolete parts shouldn't be too expensive, using BoPed crate engines saves costs and these cars should be able to be driven more easily by the amateur drivers because of the better tires, traction control and more downforce.

Simply kicking them out now isn't gonna solve anything. IMSA is in no position to turn down interest, period. If the replacement formula is a no go, then improve what you have now. Nobody complained about the long life of some Group C or WSC cars, did they? Hell, if it can be done, maybe make old open-top P2s eligible for PC, too....

[Accident]

Not sure more downforce is the way to go for amateurs...

Downforce requires speed to work, which requires pushing harder... Can all of the amateurs we have push hard enough reliably to really take full advantage of more aero? We have heard that some of the amateurs have difficulty warming up the tires quick enough because they don't push hard enough. More significantly though I think, it would make them more sensitive to traffic disrupting their aero which is definitely not good for amateurs.

More aero from adding winglets and stuff means more bits of carbon fiber that can break, and broken bits off the car have a big influence on how it handles, either making it more difficult to drive or meaning the team needs come in to replace the nose or whatever. That either means that the on-track performance and action gets worse, or that the teams need more spares which means money. The current PCs are pretty tough, how many times have we seen them off the track and into tires or making light contact with the wall and be able to keep going with no noticeable performance loss? I'm not sure we need to make them more fragile.

Developing 3 new engines to put in the cars requires someone to spend money, and while it's easy to make any of those motors put out 550hp reliably on the street, making them into endurance racing motors is another matter and wouldn't necessarily be so easy... Particularly if they wanted to try to match the excellent service life the Katech units used to have (not sure if they still do after being bumped up).

While I know you were only mentioning it in passing, opening it up to other P2 open top chassis would get the class away from being spec, which means more money to buy what is perceived as the best package. Adding in new engines and different chassis means that teams either need to spend the money to buy what is best, or leaves it down to BoP, both things that all of the current teams do not have to/want to deal with.

If you are going to push faster, non-spec cars on them where they will have to spend more money to upgrade/buy the best and start relying on BoP, why not push them towards GTD where amateur drivers wouldn't be overstepping their limits and where they can put something on the grid that people might actually care about?

If they are going to do away with the class (and I think they should) they need to give the teams time to prepare. IMSA can bring back a special trophy and a spot next to the P podium for the highest finishing pro/am team to stand on during the ceremony but not a whole class to themselves. They have a choice of moving up to P if they want to stay in prototypes, or moving to GTD if they want to stay in a pro/am class. Of course, IMSA should do whatever it can to accommodate the PC teams during the transition, whether it be helping them out with communication with manufacturers to purchase their new cars, reduced entry fees, or anything that can help.

I don't want the series to lose the teams or worse yet have any of the teams fold, but at the same time it has become a class that adds basically nothing positive to the show (thanks to the starting driver rule we don't even get good qualifying sessions anymore) and is just a home to ride-selling teams that often put people in their cars that aren't ready for prototype racing. It has failed as a ladder, and it often hurts the on-track product with needless cautions, and they don't need the show to suffer.

PC has had a good long run, but it's got to end at some point. I'd like to see the participating teams take that as a win and come into a new era with the rest of the field.

[Speed-King]

Developing 3 new engines to put in the cars requires someone to spend money, and while it's easy to make any of those motors put out 550hp reliably on the street, making them into endurance racing motors is another matter and wouldn't necessarily be so easy... Particularly if they wanted to try to match the excellent service life the Katech units used to have (not sure if they still do after being bumped up)

They aren't quite at 550bhp, but why not simply use Trans-Am TA2-engines?! All the development is done, they're cheap to buy and to run and they are available from GM, Ford and Dodge.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

They aren't quite at 550bhp, but why not simply use Trans-Am TA2-engines?! All the development is done, they're cheap to buy and to run and they are available from GM, Ford and Dodge.

That would be a good idea, if they can run for 24 hours. I have no idea if they can or not. I assume they aren't based on the most current production engines though, which seemed to be what he was suggesting.

While I'm not sure that un-spec-ing the engine side of a spec class where the teams seem to favor the spec nature of things is the best thing to do, I personally wouldn't care if the V8s being used were the absolute most current production models, so the TA2 motors seem fine to me.

Also, for clarity's sake, in my previous post I wasn't meaning to imply that it would necessarily be hard to make endurance motors out of one of the current American V8 options but that they would of course require development into endurance motors which costs more money continuing with what they have.

Have any of the the LT1, Coyote or late-model Hemi engines been built to a dedicated road racing or endurance spec by any engine builders? The Multimatic GT350Rs use the "Voodoo" variant of the Coyote, so I guess that counts.

[Coach Ep]

If the new Riley P3 finally sees the light, proves to be competitive against the Ligier armada and can be produced in rather large numbers (10+ p/yr.), I'm sure it'll be a candidate to be the new spec PC car. All it would need is a (Oreca?) spec engine with more power to at least equal the speed of the current car, hopefully it'll be a tad faster.