Yellows and Greens

[timhoverd]

As a still fairly inexperienced racer (I started about 18 months ago) I was wondering if one of you fine people could explain something to me. I was prompted to ask by the thread elsewhere about the rolling Clio at Brands which became a discussion about the technicalities of flags.

Anyway, I find that it's quite common when racing to see a yellow, waved or otherwise, react to it (I'm an old fart and tend to actually do what it says in the BB) and then at the next post not see any flags at all. That is, one sees a yellow but not a green.

I've sort of assumed that this is because the green is perhaps round the corner and by the time I can see the next post both the yellow and the green have disappeared. Or, perhaps it's because greens are deployed less enthusiastically than yellows.

Just occasionaly this can mean that one isn't absolutely certain that the yellow has done away, other than assuming a post without a flag == no yellow any more.

Any suggestions as to why this happens from my POV? Perhaps I need to stop reacting to a yellow that I can see from miles away...

Cheers,

Tim

[numbersix]

My POV is that my generously proportioned incident ar*e is possibly on the circuit just beyond that yellow flag and I would be very VERY grateful if you'd obey it, even if the green flag marshal beyond it has frozen solid and cannot lift his green.

I don't want to become one of these you understand.

[BrendanM]

Very occasionaly you may see stationary yellow, waved yellow, stationary yellow, waved yellow and green i.e. there are two incidents one after the other.

In the case of Saturday's Clio I suspect it was a close call as to where the green needed to be, post 4 or 5, as the vehicle came to rest almost alongside 4. The flaggies normaly get it spot on to give the rest of the guys as much cover as they can.

We are all human and all understand it is easy for pilot to miss the odd flag (esp. a green against a green background of trees). But those who come around several times at full chat ......

Maybe all NatB holders need a couple of days sweeping up to appreciate the difference it makes

[archaic gold]

I was Obs on Post2 that day, but as a general rule the majority of Flag Marshals are very much on the ball, and, although you may see the final moments of a waved yellow, by the time you look at the next flag point the waved yellow has been withdrawn behind you and simultaneously, the green goes as well! Same for a stationary yellow as well, of course.
No Marshal likes to see a yellow out too long, or longer than necessary as it makes the Practice/Race sterile during that period, and creates more work for the Observers writing reports on those that insist on STILL overtaking!!!

[flags]

the green flag should stay out until all the cars that passed the previous yellow flag have seen it.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by flags

the green flag should stay out until all the cars that passed the previous yellow flag have seen it.

Absolutely!
My Flag training always told me to ensure that ALL drivers who see the yellow flag should also see the green flag.
This could mean that the green flag stays out several seconds longer after the yellow has been withdrawn (Depends on distance between posts!)

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by timhoverd

Anyway, I find that it's quite common when racing to see a yellow, waved or otherwise, react to it (I'm an old fart and tend to actually do what it says in the BB) and then at the next post not see any flags at all. That is, one sees a yellow but not a green.
Perhaps I need to stop reacting to a yellow that I can see from miles away...


Cheers,

Tim

It's extremely rare for the flag marshals to cock up like that so maybe you are just missing them.
I wouldn't stop reacting to yellows as you would definitely see the CoC.

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Absolutely!
My Flag training always told me to ensure that ALL drivers who see the yellow flag should also see the green flag.
This could mean that the green flag stays out several seconds longer after the yellow has been withdrawn (Depends on distance between posts!)

Agreed! But Yes!, some Posts are very close together, especially at Brands.

[timhoverd]

Originally Posted by falcemob

I wouldn't stop reacting to yellows as you would definitely see the CoC.

No, don't worry, I phrased that wrongly. I can honestly say that I've always done the right thing when there's a yellow. My problem is that it's really quite common not to see a green, usually a couple of times in a race, and I'm rather too careful for too long until I convince myself that the yellow really has gone away.

T

[Chigley]

Originally Posted by timhoverd

. My problem is that it's really quite common not to see a green, usually a couple of times in a race,
T

There is one problem that's occurring more and more these days and can explain your observations.

It is becoming more the norm than the exception for flag posts to only have a single flaggy. Whilst we attempt to keep up a continous field of view of all the track both before and after the post, the tendancy can be to concentrate on the area after the post to cover incidents requiring immediate yellow flag action. This can lead to a yellow flag prior to the post not being seen immediately, and the green flag clearing the incident, until you scan back again or the observer/incident marshals bellow that you've cocked up again!

[Seoigh]

....and sometimes the 'incident station' is simply slow to make the call as to their yellow status...byeond line-of-sight, the next post may be unaware that they should be displaying green

[danccooke]

I know that we (well our flaggies) at post 4 on the clio incident had a waved yellow out for that one. The clio was probably about 2 meters infront of the post albiet the other side of the track. I guess they thought that was close enough still to be classed as our sector we also had men in the gravel. To be perfectly honest I have no idea what post 5 had out as I was watching for the red and the cavalary to arrive.

[Stephen Green]

Another reason you may not have seen the green flag is that it is held stationary and not waved, thereby not grabbing your attention quite as much as if it were waved.

One good idea is to look for the green flags on marshals posts as you do your formation lap, just so you are doubly sure where to look for them during the race.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Seoigh

....and sometimes the 'incident station' is simply slow to make the call as to their yellow status...byeond line-of-sight, the next post may be unaware that they should be displaying green

As far as I know MSA regs stipulate as part of the conditions for a track licence that every flag point be visible from the adjacent flag points.

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

My Flag training always told me to ensure that ALL drivers who see the yellow flag should also see the green flag.

That can sometimes be difficult to put into practice. As an example, if a waved yellow has been shown at Druids In, there will be a stationary yellow at Water Tower. The flaggie at Druids out can't see Water Tower, so if the waved yellow at Druids In is withdrawn (s)he can't be sure which cars have seen Water Tower's yellow. A case for downgrading a waved yellow to stationary for a few seconds before withdrawing it? (Speaking as a very definite non-flaggie!)

[archaic gold]

One factor which many of us are aware of, is that Flag Points are being moved further and further away from the Circuit edge, and out of direct site of a Competitor. It is time that Circuits moved into the 21st Century and started installing coloured lights controlled by the 'Flag' Marshal, not Central Control.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

That can sometimes be difficult to put into practice. As an example, if a waved yellow has been shown at Druids In, there will be a stationary yellow at Water Tower. The flaggie at Druids out can't see Water Tower, so if the waved yellow at Druids In is withdrawn (s)he can't be sure which cars have seen Water Tower's yellow. A case for downgrading a waved yellow to stationary for a few seconds before withdrawing it? (Speaking as a very definite non-flaggie!)

You are right Dave! You are a non-flaggie!!

[KayBee]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

As far as I know MSA regs stipulate as part of the conditions for a track licence that every flag point be visible from the adjacent flag points.

That can sometimes be difficult to put into practice. As an example, if a waved yellow has been shown at Druids In, there will be a stationary yellow at Water Tower. The flaggie at Druids out can't see Water Tower, so if the waved yellow at Druids In is withdrawn (s)he can't be sure which cars have seen Water Tower's yellow. A case for downgrading a waved yellow to stationary for a few seconds before withdrawing it? (Speaking as a very definite non-flaggie!)

The yellow was definitely downgraded for a few seconds, as quoted above, by the Druids In flag marshal at the meeting on 1 April - and no it wasn't me I was at Water Tower.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

As far as I know MSA regs stipulate as part of the conditions for a track licence that every flag point be visible from the adjacent flag points.



That can sometimes be difficult to put into practice. As an example, if a waved yellow has been shown at Druids In, there will be a stationary yellow at Water Tower. The flaggie at Druids out can't see Water Tower, so if the waved yellow at Druids In is withdrawn (s)he can't be sure which cars have seen Water Tower's yellow. A case for downgrading a waved yellow to stationary for a few seconds before withdrawing it? (Speaking as a very definite non-flaggie!)

I'm well aware that is the case in the UK, and a standard which is normally met...Aspired-to, but certainly not so in the States, however (Stations 6 & 7 at Daytona are a mile apart, for example - and no practical way to rectify that).

Dennis

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

You are right Dave! You are a non-flaggie!!

A situation I have no intention of changing!

[timhoverd]

Originally Posted by Chigley

There is one problem that's occurring more and more these days and can explain your observations.

It is becoming more the norm than the exception for flag posts to only have a single flaggy. Whilst we attempt to keep up a continous field of view of all the track both before and after the post, the tendancy can be to concentrate on the area after the post to cover incidents requiring immediate yellow flag action. This can lead to a yellow flag prior to the post not being seen immediately, and the green flag clearing the incident, until you scan back again or the observer/incident marshals bellow that you've cocked up again!

That makes sense. It seems that it does imply that "no yellow" can be taken as meaning "green" which is fine. I make a point of remembering where all the posts are which makes that feasible. Mind you, as someone else said, a formation lap would be really great. Problem is, we don't get them...

Thanks,

Tim

[CombeMarshal]

You don't get a formation Lap, surely thats against the regs???

It does say that you have to be able to see the adjacent posts from each post, but I did a bit of Flagging at Pembrey (And everything else too!) and where I was if you were showing the flag to the drivers the next post couldn't see it!!

[Ian Sowman]

Formation laps aren't required for closed wheel cars on non-slick tyres (or words to that effect). So, in general, they are not run by most half-decent clubs, such as 750MC.

Of course, everyone does get a sighting/formation lap at the start of qualifying...

[Dutch chap]

Originally Posted by timhoverd

That makes sense. It seems that it does imply that "no yellow" can be taken as meaning "green" which is fine.
Tim

I don't know how the situation is in the UK but, due to lack of marshals, it may happen on the continent that the next post is not manned, meaning the post after that will show you the green flag and you're not allowed to overtake till you've passed that post.

[Shelagh]

Picking up on earlier points in this thread -

Noticed during some televisation (if that's a word) on Sunday that there was a green flag out for a "travelling" accident when a newly displayed waved yellow appeared BEHIND on the same post. Umm, remember communication guys - don't expect the other guy to have eyes in the back of his head and realise that he should bring the green in unless you tell him.

[Thought: is this how they intend to get around flag marshal shortages - we have to develop those eyes and wear a large hat when in normal society?].

Otherwise, I would say that, despite any view on the situation, if the post in front has a yellow then you HOLD OUT A GREEN and, as has been said, make sure that all who have seen the yellow do see the green.

Otherwise, if a driver, I think I would assume that if I see a yellow (waved or not) and then don't see another flag (of any colour) for a number of posts thereafter, then it is safe to "go racing" again. BUT NOTE that is a non-racer's view and any number of situations could occur which mean that I don't intend that viewpoint to be taken as advice!

[Grandslammer]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

Picking up on earlier points in this thread -

Noticed during some televisation (if that's a word) on Sunday that there was a green flag out for a "travelling" accident when a newly displayed waved yellow appeared BEHIND on the same post.

If that's the same incident as the one I seen,that's what can happen when Flag Marshals are working 'back to back'
...and like you said,(if that's the only way to work the post),good communication is crucial

Lee,I'm curious as to which post you were on at Pembrey