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19 Dec 2000, 21:48 (Ref:53380) | #1 | ||
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Are Super-Tourers Dead in Australia? Grids are declining, the tracks used are old (places like Symmons Plains and Lakeside), and there are NO factory teams. Can it survive?
I think TOCA's only chance is to change the rules to the 2001 BTCC rules, and try and get more cars. Also, live coverage on TV would be good. |
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20 Dec 2000, 01:26 (Ref:53406) | #2 | ||
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are super tourers dead ???
no not quite but the respirator should be turned off very soon. its a shame but we all know what the leading class here in OZ is and im not so sure what TOCA can do to help its ailing show |
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20 Dec 2000, 10:42 (Ref:53458) | #3 | ||
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People say they are dead and buried but for some reason no has been able to nail the coffin lid down.
And I wouldn't say Wakefield Park is old...just will seem silly when they turn up for a second or third time. |
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20 Dec 2000, 12:10 (Ref:53464) | #4 | ||
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And will be funny when the Konica series shows up there next year...
Old tracks? Who gives a rats, they are good tracks. Canberra is a new track...and i dont think it will ever go down as a classic... Super Touring is stuffed, and I hope they do pull the plug... but i feel sorry for the few poor sods who went and built themselves future tourers... Live coverage on TV? They have a good package now, professionally but together giving everyone a fair go. They already pay top dollar for the coverage they get now, live coverage would be astronomical.. |
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22 Dec 2000, 08:23 (Ref:53774) | #5 | ||
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The answer to DNQ's two questions are, in order, Yes and No.
Why do you think 2001 BTCC regs are TOCA's only chance? Those regs have even less chance than maintaining the status quo. Who is going to build a car to those regs? The Super Production regs as used by Class B in this years BTCC is eligible for the ASTC but no-one has even seriously looked at building a car to those regs. TOCA's future is with Future Touring, and that is all but a fait accompli now. Super Tourers may not even by eligible for next year's series, as there is a big push to get them re-classified as Sports Sedans, although the Sports Sedan body doesn't want them because of the sequential gearboxes. Presntly seven body shapes are eligible for Future Touring, Ford Falcon EL, Ford Falcon AU, Holden Commodore VS, Holden Commodore VT, Mitsubishi Magna, Toyota Avalon and Toyota Camry, and moves are afoot to get BMW 5 Series, Volvo 70 series and other bodyshapes eligible. yours Mark Jones |
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22 Dec 2000, 10:44 (Ref:53793) | #6 | ||
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I think they will have to do something about that then as the 70 series will very shortly (in Australia) be estate only. Guess it will be the new 60 series.
Future Touring can work...but don't know if it will. It needs to be marketed correctly (for instance not against V8 Supercars) and more competitors in both that and support categories. |
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22 Dec 2000, 12:32 (Ref:53809) | #7 | ||
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well what is going to happen to all the 2 litre cars if they are not eligible to race next year and if the sports sedan people dont want them ???
are they destined to end up rusting away in garages or only being brought out for events such as targa tasmania??? and carnt a H pattern gearbox be adapted to the cars to make them eligible for sports sedans?? I like the future tourers idea and think it can work as a good series but I also like the 2 litre cars and dont want to see them dissapear from our shores never to be heard of again..surely 2 litre can be saved in some way but how I dont know. |
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22 Dec 2000, 12:56 (Ref:53810) | #8 | ||
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Just because the Super Touring class has folded, it shouldnt become a burden on Sport Sedans. If they let in sequential boxes, it would raise build and production costs, as well as **** of a lot of people...not what the class needs.
Converting them can be done, but it is a pretty expensive task, and in some cases, quite an engineering feat. But why you would run a Super Tourer in Sport Sedans is beyond me. For the amount of money it would cost, you would be better off being in another class, or buying a differnt class. A ST would be too expensive for club level racing, and too slow for the national title... Also, how could a full bodied car be competitive against a space frame car? If you had the money and the desire and the time time, you would do it properly. If i were selling them, i would try the Asian market, they would probably go for a well sorted ST...do they still race them there? Future tourers...they dont really do anything for me. Sort of a mix between GTP, Commodore Cup, Saloon Cars, V8 Supercars...they have had a long time to develope since Bathurst 1999, and what do we get at race meetings these days, 3? Saloon cars have been in existance for about the same time of less and they have a great following (car numbers wise), are cheaper, provide the same sort of sideways action, and area great stepping stone. btw, wasnt Milton Leslight building a BTCC 2001 car? Also the Searle's? And there are others...what happened there? |
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22 Dec 2000, 18:50 (Ref:53844) | #9 | ||
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Crash Test wrote:
>If i were selling them, i would try the Asian market, they >would probably go for a well sorted ST...do they still >race them there? > Nope, even the SEATCZC has switched to a NSC type of cars. The only other possibility is the STCC and maybe the Sud AM ST series. The latter has not announced what will happen next year. But from a 20+ car strong series, they have been reduced down to 10-12 car starting grids this year. >A ST would be too expensive for club level racing, and too >slow for the national title... > But aren't all the older cars "reasonably" cheap? They can be bought for 20-60K?? That doesn't seem to unreasonably for club level racing? |
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23 Dec 2000, 11:19 (Ref:53933) | #10 | ||
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But aren't all the older cars "reasonably" cheap? They can be bought for 20-60K?? That doesn't seem to unreasonably for club level racing?
Well the other day, a very old Pug 405 (94/95) was being sold for $45,000. Now people do pay that much for club level cars (id say for a cheap car, you should pay $6K, that would get you the championship winning car in the geminis), but the thing is, that the upkeep on a standard club level car is much less than that of a ST. Have a look at some of the cars that dont make it past friday due to mechanical gremlins...how has Jim Cornish et al been going this year? The only team not suffering mechanical problems is Morris's, and they are easily the best funded team out there... |
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23 Dec 2000, 18:42 (Ref:53985) | #11 | ||
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kmchow wrote:
>Well the other day, a very old Pug 405 (94/95) was being >sold for $45,000. > The ASTC ones? Wasn't one selling for "only" (Hey, we're talking about race cars after all! ) 20K? Is it Fitzgerald ones? >Have a look at some of the cars that dont make it past >friday due to mechanical gremlins...how has Jim Cornish et >al been going this year? > OTOH,if every team is having trouble, at least it's fair? |
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24 Dec 2000, 02:26 (Ref:54020) | #12 | ||
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The car forsale was last raced by Peter Roggenkamp in 1997. It was the car originally raced by Phil Alexander and later bent horribly out shape while being retrieved from a Snadtrap at Hell Corner at Bathurst. Never been competitive or fast and only ever scored one ASTC point in the hands of David Grose.
Don't touch it. Chances of any ST's being succesfully converted to H pattern are not even slim and none. They're just none. In later Super Tourers the sequential gearboxes are an integral part of the car's design, and as Crash-Test suggested would require major engineering works to circumvent. Sports Sedans have been accepting cast offs from other categories for decades, and there seems to be a push from within Sports Sedans ranks to clean up the category at a regulatory level in an attempt to regain the position they once had within the nations categories. Unfortunately while the insist on looking more spectaculare than V8Supercar and feature more makes than Holden and Ford the chances of that changing at a significant level are not great. Ahhhh politics..... The feature for the nations 30 or so Super Tourers? Large pot plants spring most immediately to mind. yours Mark Jones |
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24 Dec 2000, 03:00 (Ref:54022) | #13 | |
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remember the first future touring race at Bathurst? I reckon it was a great race and if they got a series like that going, it would be great to see. Cause the cars are a lot cheaper to build you could have bigger grids and cause they are really a basic road car modifided a little, it would depend more on the driver then the car. More makes would be good too, like Mitsubishi, Toyota, Bmw and Volvo.
If they got this going it would be quite a good series but untill it happens we can only wait and see what happens over the next year or two. |
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24 Dec 2000, 03:12 (Ref:54023) | #14 | ||
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The statement that Future Tourers were cheap to build was a bit of a furphy. While no racing car is cheap these cars are not cheap comparitively either. Inital claim I think was converted AUSCARs could be made for about $30k IIRC? I don't think any of them have been built for that, and the new cars for double that.
yours Mark Jones |
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24 Dec 2000, 03:52 (Ref:54025) | #15 | |
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It is cheap compared to the price to build a competive V8 Supercar or Super Tourer.
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24 Dec 2000, 05:27 (Ref:54036) | #16 | ||
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The ASTC ones? Wasn't one selling for "only" (Hey, we're talking about race cars after all! ) 20K? Is it Fitzgerald ones?
I dont seem to know which one you are talking about there... But would you buy a $20K ST? Why would be so cheap?? The car forsale was last raced by Peter Roggenkamp in 1997. It was the car originally raced by Phil Alexander and later bent horribly out shape while being retrieved from a Snadtrap at Hell Corner at Bathurst. Never been competitive or fast and only ever scored one ASTC point in the hands of David Grose. The car for $45K is the one which Zonnevold drove for TC Motorsport last year, so before that it was a Fastways car, and a Foxtel car, and then initially a BTCC car. Sports Sedans have been accepting cast offs from other categories for decades, and there seems to be a push from within Sports Sedans ranks to clean up the category at a regulatory level in an attempt to regain the position they once had within the nations categories. Unfortunately while the insist on looking more spectaculare than V8Supercar and feature more makes than Holden and Ford the chances of that changing at a significant level are not great. If you wanted to race a road car in Sport Sedans, that wouldnt be a problem, but you would probably get annoyed when you get lapped once every two laps . At the national level of sport sedans, only one car competing is not fully spaceframed, and as the Sandown and Adelaide ALMS fields indicate, the class can well and truely stand on its own two feat without full bodied cars. remember the first future touring race at Bathurst? I reckon it was a great race and if they got a series like that going, it would be great to see. Cause the cars are a lot cheaper to build you could have bigger grids and cause they are really a basic road car modifided a little, it would depend more on the driver then the car. More makes would be good too, like Mitsubishi, Toyota, Bmw and Volvo. The problem is that there are sooo many similar classes already in circulation, and those classes are all up and running (or nearly there). Like I said previously, this class has had well over 18 months to develope, and to date we are still getting 3 car grids...that really doesnt cut it with me, if they want to be taken seriously, they should pull their fingers out... For next season it seems as though nobody knows what is going to happen. Competitors are umming and ahhhring as to stay with Super Tourers/make a Future Tourer/do something/give it away and get a wife... The statement that Future Tourers were cheap to build was a bit of a furphy. While no racing car is cheap these cars are not cheap comparitively either. Inital claim I think was converted AUSCARs could be made for about $30k IIRC? I don't think any of them have been built for that, and the new cars for double that. There was a VS FT on sale the other day for $60,000...and when you can get the best Saloon car in Australia for $25,000 ->$30,000, i know which one I'd choose... Heck, the Saloon cars already have a large enough following to become a support to the Konica series, which aint bad going... It is cheap compared to the price to build a competive V8 Supercar or Super Tourer. I would imagine a build cost of around $80,000 -$100,000, whiich would be under half the build cost of a V8 Supercar, and god knows what compared to that of a ST...how much did they cost to build?? |
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24 Dec 2000, 21:58 (Ref:54128) | #17 | ||
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To build a competitive V8 supercar costs around $250,000 - $300,000.
CAMS have recently changed the Sports Sedan regs to allow in ST cars with sequential boxes. |
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24 Dec 2000, 23:25 (Ref:54146) | #18 | ||
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Why anyone would spend the money running needed to run and maintain a Super Tourer on what is effectively a U2 Sports Sedan. I'd be very interested to see how Super Tourer lap times compared to the faster U2's. Cars like Woodwards gorgeous new Gemini, a very potent weapon indeed.
yours Jonesy |
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24 Dec 2000, 23:50 (Ref:54151) | #19 | ||
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Crash Test wrote:
>I dont seem to know which one you are talking about >there... But would you buy a $20K ST? Why would be so >cheap?? > Didn't the Hyundai Lantras sell for just 25K? They aren't championship material, but heck, they were extremely well taken care of and sorted? >I would imagine a build cost of around $80,000 -$100,000, >whiich would be under half the build cost of a V8 > >Supercar, > I heard a V8 Supercar is approx. 150-200K US. >and god knows what compared to that of a ST...how much did >they cost to build?? > The number generally thrown around is "only" 300K+/-100K US. I think that is a "bargain" considering the cost of a DTM was double that. OTOH, it's hard to put a price on a new ST since no non works (private) team has ever bought a brand new car to the best of my knowledge??? Can anyone prove me wrong??? While the Works teams were given a budget to design/build/race the cars. Sighhh...wouldn't it be cool if ST and the DTM knocked every country's motorsport series off their feat!! |
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25 Dec 2000, 11:31 (Ref:54177) | #20 | ||
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When abouts did Cams confirm that sequential boxes were in? Because from what I gather, not one Sport Sedan Association in Australia voted for them, so if this is true, it is simply a case of Cams doing what it does best...
Earlier in the year the Sport Sedan Associations of Oz joined foces and drew up a set of minimum weights wich would be recomended to Cams. Everyone with a Sport Sedan was happy with them; a great deal of work went into them. So what did Cams do? Screw them entirely. If it is true that they will allow them to race as 2 litre sport sedans, that is still going to cause one hell of **** fight. Some of the cashed up over 2ltr cars will also want them, and at the end of the day, Sport Sedan will loose a great deal of ground. It's kind of like Matt Jackson racing his Improved Production Datsun 1600 against David's Historic 1600 in the Historic class. They are both red(ish) 1600s with little sign writing, but it would be grossly unfair to the Historic competitors. The fastest U2ltr Sport Sedan around Lakeside would have been Trent Young's Levin in 1800cc form, and it was about 55 seconds. Then you have to consider the budget that they work with compared to a team Morris, and then consider that that sort of time would have but his car on 4th-5th grid position this year. Woodward's best to date would have been about 7th, but there is a long way to go for that car... |
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25 Dec 2000, 11:35 (Ref:54178) | #21 | ||
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Didn't the Hyundai Lantras sell for just 25K? They aren't championship material, but heck, they were extremely well taken care of and sorted?
Bah! Did the ex owners pay $25K for someone to take them away! Id hate to be rude here, but they are easily the daggiest Super Tourers I have ever seen...i've seen better roll cages and interiors in demolition derby cars! And yes, they are sorted, everyone has sorted them.....as not being worth $25K! |
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25 Dec 2000, 21:05 (Ref:54221) | #22 | ||
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I'm not sure if Trent Young managed a 55, I think his best may have been a 56. Jim Richards has done a low 52 in the Volvo S40.
Last year a 405 was offered for sale in Auto Fiction for $22K, now apparently the same car is being offered for $45K, WTF? I'm not certain about the sequential boxes, I can't even remember the source, but I'm told it's a done deal. |
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26 Dec 2000, 00:33 (Ref:54246) | #23 | ||
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Trent's 55 wasn't in the dual induction Levin I take it, which surely wouldn't qualify as a U2.
Two different Pugs. The car being offerred at $45k is an ex-Newman/Foxtel 405. The one offerred for $22k was the other car I mentioned, the ex-Siders, Alexander, Grose, Roggenkamp, Imrie car. yours Jonesy |
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26 Dec 2000, 12:00 (Ref:54274) | #24 | ||
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There was a thing in Auto Fiction a while ago hinting that Super Tourers might be allowed in as Sport Sedans...and it came up at a meeting, where it was voted a big nono. So if a deal has been done, a great deal many people will have a fantastic reason to get the ****s with the system...
Trents car was an 1800cc car pre-2000, it was 55/56, which was still mighty quick, especially when you consider their budget with the multi-million dollar one for the Volvo. |
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