ECU/s Motec vs Cosworth Pectel SQ6

[Silver 3]

Can anyone help me with this please. I am curious as to why one would be preferred over the other-- both being used in conjunction with Motec dash.
I am interested in the ultimate ability to be used-- so for this purpose presume it is a no compromise use.
Installation needs every modern driver aid!
It is a purely track car.

[Notso Swift]

Which MoTeC?

Switchable maps is the only thing I can think of compared to an M"X"00, but I bet there is a way around that and I can ask someone (at MoTeC) who will know exactly.

Porsche use M600 as OEM on the Carrera Cup cars, usually a pretty good indicator

[Silver 3]

Guess what next 2013 Cup cars are using!!
Any info is appreciated.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Guess what next 2013 Cup cars are using!!
Any info is appreciated.

Judging by the pic of the '14 991 GT3 CCup above, there isnt a MoTeC in front of the pilot any more

[RaceDataSystems]

MoTeC Mx00 supports map switching between 4 maps
996 & 997 Cup cars used Bosch MS3.1 ECU as standard, not MoTeC
991 Cup cars are also using Bosch ECU, though now an MS4.6
991 Cup dash has switched from MoTeC ADL2 to Cosworth ICD

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by RaceDataSystems

MoTeC Mx00 supports map switching between 4 maps
996 & 997 Cup cars used Bosch MS3.1 ECU as standard, not MoTeC
991 Cup cars are also using Bosch ECU, though now an MS4.6
991 Cup dash has switched from MoTeC ADL2 to Cosworth ICD

Before we get too sidetracked-- Motec dash was used previously in Cup cars--with the ECU's listed above.
I was and am aware of the history and next years changes!! My question has nothing to do with any of that!!
My question is as the thread title is and that is the info I am seeking.

[RaceDataSystems]

Sorry.

What engine are you running? does your mapper have a preference or more experience in any one system and do you have dealers that will both provide equal support?

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by RaceDataSystems

Sorry.

What engine are you running? does your mapper have a preference or more experience in any one system and do you have dealers that will both provide equal support?

No dealers of Cosworth or support in this part of the world( as far as I can see)-while every man and his dog thinks he knows all about Motec!!
It is a turbo engine.I do have access to a very clever tech guy( and I mean clever) whose responsibility will be to sort it out either way and has experience with various types of ECU's.
My question is about what I lose if I use one system or another( in ultimate terms) and is not yet about the practicalities.I have already discovered some plusses for the Cosworth -- but I am interested to hear from those that know !!

[Notso Swift]

MoTeC Mx00 supports map switching between 4 maps

Externally?
I did not know that, I thought you had get on the laptop

Silver
Since you are here call Jamie Augustine, he has compared them and he actually does know. Obviously there is a little bit of natural bias but he is honest about the pro's and cons.
Told me to keep my Autronic and considering the history there...

[RICE RACING]

I had a motec M800 and MDD and a few other items, I did not like the window frame extrusion case held together with self tapper screws, nor did I like the very basic PCB construction that in the event of outside systems being screwed would melt a track if the polarity was scewed, all in all I thought it was a very over hyped and over priced system, and the pay to play code enebles are nothing but an outright scam.

I replaced it with a Pectel MQ12
It has no pay to play features, comes with 2 GB internal logging, the software is on another planet, build quality is amazing.

The SQ6M12 would be similar except you dont get the all in one logging ability thus you would need to keep your Dash.

If it were me I would E-bay the Motec Dash, and get the Pectel/Cosworth ICD lite version and a MQ12 ECU, simpler, lighter, better, no need for external spark boxes, no rip off codes and not a window frame extrusion in site or any self tappers holding it all together

[RICE RACING]

The features you want in the Pectel v's the rest are the following:

*Knock control that works
*IGBT ignition coil drivers (can run anything)
*All in one unit that is a logger and ECU (MQ12)
*Huge memory (MQ12)
*Professional construction (water proof)
*Real connectors Autosport with plenty of inputs/outputs (no need for multiple devices)
*Pi Toolbox pro is the best data analysis tool on the planet (dongle required = $1600) o.k. its almost like an 'enable' LOL
*Control over items, not hidden behind code

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/download...q12_pectel.pdf
^ Not into 'spec sheet racing' but here is a list of what the MQ12 can do, that does not convey the power of the Pi caltool or Pi toolbox pro features and things you can do with it.

If you add up all of the items you need to buy and 'enable codes' complexity in wiring, multiple boxes etc, it actually works out cheaper.

For support Cosworth direct are fine to talk with, but honestly if you need allot of that you should not even be considering this product, that is more what motec is for, mid tier hobby types.

Pectel and Life Racing are the far better alternatives for those who are capable.

[Notso Swift]

... this is a paid political announcement from your local member of parliament...

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

... this is a paid political announcement from your local member of parliament...

Not at all, I paid for all my items out of my own pocket, and chose the best ones for me.

Motec was a big let down, over hyped and over priced for what you get.

[gregpe]

Also pit limiter at pectel lot better than motec gear cut control lot better , closed loop paddle shift i think one of the best on the market.. for me there is no discussion pectel is step in front of MX00 series from motec..
if you need more info or support more than happy to help..

[cossie55]

Ignore the price of the options, put them all in, and then look at features and prices as a comparison. The options are only there to make it cheaper for those who dont need the functions.

Pi do exactly the same thing with options, DBW and TC appear to be options on the SQ6.

Many of the items listed are quite subjective. Ask a few people who you actually know who use the products for a balanced opinion.

jamie@motec.

[apexspeedtech]

This thread was actually referred to me by our lead tech; we were the US Distributor for Pectel until last year, and we're currently a MOTEC M-Series developer. We have also installed & tuned dozens of MX00-series ECUs, so I feel like we may be in a position to address some of the pros and cons.

I'll spare those who don't want to read the long post:

Pectel is a more highly featured ECU, but its poor support, software bugs and lack of flexibility negates these advantages in many applications.

First things first: The new M-Series is the future. We are working on 3 M130 installations and an M190 right now. I am impressed with the quality of the software & hardware, as well as the developer tools. Its price is at a premium right now, but like they say, you get what you pay for. All other things being equal, buy this ECU - its my favorite right now.

Next important point: For almost installation with 8 cylinders or less, either ECU will do the job equally well. The difference is the services and support - after 10 years in this business I believe that the quality of the suppliers is the #1 factor in the success of your project. And this doesn't just apply to newbies, I fully believe that even among the most experienced and educated tuners and installers, strong manufacturer support support yields better support.

So here is my take on the MX00 ECUs vs. Pectel:

Motec's advantages:

• Superior software flexibility (the user-defined table axis are awesome)
• Superior CAN integration.
• More expandability (E888/816, DBW4, etc)
• Superior build quality.
• Best service and support in the industry, period.

Pectel's advantages:

• More inputs and outputs.
• Faster logging rates.
• More logging memory available
• Superior data logging implementation - its simply brilliant.
• Internal knock amplifiers (2)
• Internal thermocouple amplifiers (2)
• Twin internal DC motor drivers for drive by wire.

On paper, the Pectel seems like the better choice. But at the end, we have chosen not to sell it in the volumes we did in the past. Why?

1. Support and Service. There are simply not enough Pectel support engineers or qualified dealers.

2. Software issues. There are software bugs. Things don't work the way you expect them to. Some features don't work at all. You need to have a new license file every year, when the ECU stops working you are stuck with your thumb up your ass until you can get the new license file and install it. As a dealer, you have no idea how much of my time is spent addressing this, year after year.

3. Stability. I have more PC software issues on Pectel in 1 month than I have in 10 years of MOTEC.

4. Lack of software flexibility. The control strategies are what they are. You have a few general purpose PWM strategies and sensor inputs, but in reality, a lot of the extra features that they claim are needed because you HAVE to do things their way; you don't have the flexibility to design the system to suit your needs. In the end, there are plenty of workarounds so you can get what you want, but combined with the other issues its just one more thing to deal with.

5. No documentation except spec sheets. There is very limited help built into the software, but even that can be misleading and incomplete. Release notes are rare, technical function descriptions are limited, and the ones that exist are internal and not for general distribution.

6. Hardware issues. We had some defective ECUs. We have been told that they have all been resolved now and I do believe them, but I've never even heard of a defective MX00.

7. Poor warranty and repair service and support. The guys at Pectel in the UK are stellar individuals, and I remind friends with many of their former staff. I feel like they aren't supported well by their management.

8. Poor software support. There is no place to download software, drivers, get upgrades, patches, bug fixes, etc. Upgrading software is laborious and complex, every time I update the firmware on an MX00 I wonder why can't everything be that easy.

9. All the above said, there is new management there so maybe things will change. I've often told them that if they stepped up their game in terms of service and support, they would own the high-end ECU market. Once you've endured all the of the obstacles in getting the ECU up and running properly, its really good.

How does this effect you? The Pectel will take the vast majority of you more time and cost more in the end. Why? Because you will find something that's not right, you will spend hours trying to figure out your issues, only to find out its a known bug or "vaporware" feature that there was no way for you to have known about.

So much so that, after 150 Pectel ECU sales, I will not do a Pectel project unless we're designing and building the harnesses, doing the installation and all the tuning. Frankly, this may be the way Pectel prefers things go anyway. The service and support costs associated preclude any other way of doing it. For some applications, if you are willing to hire someone who has all this knowledge to do the job right, its the better choice. For example, a BMW V8 with twin throttle bodies, 8 injectors, 8 ignitions and 4 variable cams is a breeze with Pectel; with MOTEC MX00 it involves 3 boxes and a lot more cost and complexity. But that advantage is gone now that the M-Series is here.

On the other hand, I can put an MX00 in a box and ship it to anyone. I know that the features work exactly as they claim, than the support engineers will respond when we need them, and there are skilled dealers all over the world who can help.

Finally, James, Simon & Drake at MOTEC USA are stellar individuals. They seem to exist to help us - they are partners in our projects. I am constantly amazed by their dedication and service. In 2011, when we were almost exclusively Pectel, some of the senior members of MOTEC Australia and MOTEC USA took the entire Apex staff to dinner to get our viewpoints on the market and to see how they could earn their business. During the same time, Pectel's managing director was based out of the Torrance, CA office for about a month - 20 minutes from ours - and even when I was visiting he never once even came out and shook my hand, much less asked my opinion on things. Time and time again the MOTEC people have demonstrated an interest in improving their products and services, and this means a lot to people who make their living selling ECUs.

By the way, we've been talking about Pectel with Rice Racing for over a year now; I'm glad to see he's part of this thread.

Hope all of this was educational.


-Neel

[Silver 3]

Apex-- thx for reply-interesting. I asked to question originally because I was looking at a car(at that time) already running system.I was trying to decide if paying a premium( because of Pectel etc) was going to be relevant or would I finish up spending money twice.Original plan was to go Motec -- and like everything there is always more than one way to do anything!!
What I was trying to understand was what I was getting-- and not getting either way.
I am not so concerned about tech side--I have clever guy who has vast experience of different types of systems and I am sure he could handle it-- but-- willing factory support and patience is a necessity!!
Nice to hear you were happy with Aussie attitude in dealing with them!!
Plaudits here to all for contributing to the thread.

[RICE RACING]

Hello Neel

I can only add that if I did not have access directly to a Pectel engineer it would be a hard task (impossible), and I am very good at setting these things up, there are 'issues' that I myself have experienced using my own MQ12 Pectel unit (best one they make).... some days I wanted to smash it with a hammer! *software and firmware related* and to be honest that is exactly the reason why I got it from the other owner who bought it new and decided to sell it out for a Motec LOL (it was too much hassel for him and his customers who were running Pectel MQ12's).

If you are willing to persist and learn the system and implement it and have the support (as I was/am fortunate to have) then the Pectel can be a great thing.

It's no day to day support or forum type activity though, as the one bloke I have at call is off doing things like supporting customers at Le-Mans of doing one of bespoke projects...... and heaven help you if you want some custom software done, I got a qoute of $8350 Pounds! for a short coming I found in the 'software' but I managed my own work around after some analysis.

The motec is a better choice of 95% of people, I do not say that lightly either as its a fact, once you own one of these and experience the things I have and what Neel talks about.

Pectel/Cosworth ca$h is king, most people will tell you who deal with them if you are not spending ca$h with them that you soon get forgoten about, I think they are spolit to deal mostly with Corporate clients like Honda Racing Team, and Toyota for example, and even if your a small two bit player (IE: spending less than 50k lol) then you are a pretty low priority, and there is the basic presumption of hugh ability in the use and implementation that is why you get limited to no help.

I doubt they ever will be a motec in customer service or seeking that market, as they really dont need it or want it either.

They need to set up a sub structure like Life Racing did with Syvecs, employ some staff and really focus on the customer side of things, but that would mean a support network and getting up with the times to cater for it, for Syvecs it paid off and there is no greater shining example than the R35 project (to pick one) this alone is example of how it can work in application.... doubt you will ever see that from Cosworth though.

[apexspeedtech]

was trying to decide if paying a premium( because of Pectel etc) was going to be relevant or would I finish up spending money twice.

If someone was claiming they expected more because the car had Pectel, I disagree with them. If a car has any of the professional-Level ECUs (defined by being used by top-level or factory racing series) then the only time a premium is justified is if you have knowledge that the quality of work or tuning is well above and beyond the norm. Just having XYZ ECU is not a good enough reason.

I am not so concerned about tech side--I have clever guy who has vast experience of different types of systems and I am sure he could handle it-- but-- willing factory support and patience is a necessity!!

You nailed it on the head - willing factory support & patience will be a necessity. And without it you may go nowhere. No matter how smart the people you have are, they better be good detectives. When things aren't working, you need a scope, a dyno full confidence in your wiring & maps, and a very controlled environment to quantify the problem. But solving it then isn't always easy.

But buying a car with a worked out system, Pectel or otherwise, negates almost all the concerns I've pointed out.

-Neel

[apexspeedtech]

They need to set up a sub structure like Life Racing did with Syvecs, employ some staff and really focus on the customer side of things, but that would mean a support network and getting up with the times to cater for it

Which is what we tried for years.

We learned a business lesson from all of this. MOTEC included, I am beholden to no ECU Supplier. I work for the customer and provide them what works best within their needs & budget. And it is clear from the start that they are responsible for all time and materials,. And to do this, its paramount that you have the integrity to accept it when you make a mistake and do the right thing. Its also important to stick to your guns when you've done the right things on your end and extra-costs involved are manufacturer issues.

-Neel

[apexspeedtech]

There's an update to the Pectel situation:

Charles, the Pectel support engineer we worked with at the end of our relationship with them, has been assigned the head of Cosworth Electronics North America and relocated to Charlotte, North Carolina.

I quite like this gentleman and think he's one of the most enthusiastic, capable and genuinely helpful people in the industry. Its my personal belief that he's not always been given the resources to properly support customers, but I admire his dedication and it seems its been acknowledged.

I sincerely hope this will bring some much needed improvements to the support and service situation. They do have excellent products and if they put the resources into improving the customer experience, they will be a formidable resources in this field.

-Neel

[Silver 3]

Instead of starting another thread I have an additional question-- anyone able to compare SYVECS system?
Internet forum info seems to be fairly narrow motorsport use( eg 1/4 mile)-- so interested in any info from wider motorsport community.

[apexspeedtech]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Instead of starting another thread I have an additional question-- anyone able to compare SYVECS system?
Internet forum info seems to be fairly narrow motorsport use( eg 1/4 mile)-- so interested in any info from wider motorsport community.

Syvecs are Life Racing ECUs. Life concentrates on selling to professional racing organizations and dealers, while Syvecs markets the same hardware to a broader customer base. They have excellent people working for them and are a good value. We enjoy tuning them and enjoy working with their people.

Every year, there are more and more good products out there. I think Syvecs, Pectel, EFI Euro and MOTEC all occupy the same mid-high end and up category. Almost any project that can you one of these ECUs will perform just as well and reliably with any of them. The difference is in their ease of use and customer support. Typically the better this is, the more you pay.

There are some ECUs that occupy a space above these, but ironically have less in terms of customer support and service because the users tend to be very experienced as they are. These include Bosch Motorsports, Marelli & McLaren ECUs. The top offerings from Pectel, MOTEC, Life & EFI Euro also occupy this space, and the lower end offerings from Bosch & Marelli bleed down into the mainstream MOTEC/Pectel/Life/EFI market but that doesn't necessarily make them a good choice.

I am particularly fond of Vi-PEC and the new AEM Infinity ECUs as they are traditionally occupy a tier lower than that of the MOTEC/Pectel/Life/EFI units, but have been moving upward in terms of quality and sophistication to the point where for many applications they are an equal or better value.

Sorry, meandering answer to a simple question....

-Neel

[RICE RACING]

Here is my ICD getting prepared

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv8Szo_6j70

Still have to insert the RICE RACING logo but you get the idea .........

Great info to be extracted, like all the brands you pay for the features, but anyway you get the idea, I am using the Pectel DB1-RSHE with 2 x 2GB cards for logging (suits me best) Bit of a read for anyone interested on what Toolbox analysis software allows.

http://www.racedatasystems.com/coswo...sh-logger.html

^ Product documentation^

and full manual listed here > http://www.racedatasystems.com/downl...user_guide.pdf



This is better than Magnetti Marrelli Mystery Marvel and their top shelf tools fwiw

[Silver 3]

Neel-thanks for reply( again)--it is very interesting to read .As you said-the stage is very much changing with more being offered.No one likes to pay over the odds for the sake of it-so being able to access the best option/value and understanding what you are getting( and most importantly-not getting) from any decision is important.