Beer & Brats vs Wine & Cheese

[dj4monie]

Besides the on going debate about the BMW M3 and Corvette being allowed so many waivers to make them competitive, there is a sort of culture war going on in the series among its management and fans I believe.

I'm really trying to figure out how come the series teams have so much trouble trying to attract mainstream sponsorships.

Flying Lizard, owned by venture capitalist Seth Neiman. He uses his teams hospitality to entertain sponsors, business partners and other investors.

He has no mainstream sponsorship on his car. He has a bunch of B2B companies as sponsors which I'm sure he's also an investor. Nothing wrong with this, but I see this as "Rich People Talking To Themselves". As a fan what interest do you have in Shoretel? Are you a small to medium size business owner? Maybe you wanna run by Flying Lizard's paddock. But that is not the majority of fans watching the show.

In contrast, Risi is owned by Mr. Risi but he also own Ferrari of Houston, TX.

Being that his primary income is selling cars (albeit High End), he was able this season to get additional sponsorship from Shell Oil Products. Shell is a long time supporter of Ferrari's F1 effort. But I can name two or three mainstream sponsors that Risi has had over the years.

Turn 10 Development makers of the Forza Driving Game series for Xbox and Xbox 360 and Motorola/Boost Mobile. They also have sponsorships from B2B type companies as well.

So you can have BOTH as a sponsor in the series. It just seem so much harder to get mainstream product sponsors for other teams.

Somebody said in another post that, there are more Brats and Beer being consumed at Mid-Ohio than Wine and Cheese. He has a valid point. I think somehow the series has lost sight of its core values and reads its own press releases too much.

How come we don't have sponsorships from Proctor & Gamble, General Mills and others?

I can understand not having say Autozone, Big A or Pep Boys. While I never saw a owner of a Ferrari pull up to the store I worked at, you did occasionally have a customer with an M3 or Porsche 911 come in. Of course this store was in a upper middle class area.

Both Mother's and Mequier's use expensive cars on their products, displays and advert images, how come this doesn't carry over to the ALMS?

Maybe the lack of preparation is the problem and why Atherton laughed at Duncan Dayton.

Some just aren't taking this thing seriously. This is why I can't believe the blind support for certain privateers in the series. We are not talking about Sister's of The Poor here, we're talking about largely very wealth private business owners and individuals. So looking out for their wallets shouldn't be your concern AT ALL. There should be no talking of "well if we allowed this and that, it would drive out competitors".

I doubt that seriously, its only a choice to compete or not, they aren't doing it for a living.

This is why the question the competitive nature of Drayson, Dyson, Intersport and Autocon.

With Dyson its their reliability problems. Pagenaud mentioned that the Mazda engine sounded off-song in the final moments of the race. There should be no assumption or celebration that all its problems were resolved with today's victory.

Bobby Rahal FIRED Honda from his CART Indy Car team. Japanese have much pride and do not like embarrassment. They felt the dismissal by the former Indy 500 Winner in a World Class series like CART was a true reflection on how prepared the brand was entering CART. They re-grouped and by and large dominated CART during its peak.

This is likely the slap in the face, AER needs. If Mazda wants to brand an engine and use production parts, it should be using its own engineering team to help AER develop a reliable power plant. Many European teams were interested in Mazda's engine for LMP2 and Mazda managed to sign a few teams, only to be troubled by a fuel mixture problem that was largely never solved. The European teams dropped them, period. The only respected team running AER engines? The One that's invested in them, hmmmmm.

In any other form of serious competition engine builders with less than 50% finishing rate would be FIRED by mid-season. That doesn't even include their record last season...

Go ahead and cheer lead for Dyson if you want, its not deserved. I would say since Pops retired from the daily running of the team and Weaver retired to his Rose Garden, Dyson has lost its way and become way too tolerant of loosing.

I shouldn't even waste any space on the others. I will give Drayson a bit of a pass because he only found out too late after budgets were finalized that he would no longer be a member of British Parliament. That still doesn't include the lesson learned from Utah, in which you can't ask the faster driver to take up the majority of time in the car and expect to win. You can't count on flat tires and burnt wires by Highcroft to allow you to win.

I wish Pickett no ill will and back injuries are very serious, but WE the fans have been thrown a blessing as we're likely to see younger, faster, professionals in that car for the final 3 races. This DNS might have dashed their hopes of a Championship in a off-year(s) but they will go down fighting and that's what we want.

I can't say the same for the others, they don't want to make the investment, its not that they can't.

I see this as the same culture war off track were people are anti-union for strange reasons and want to protect their wealth business owners or corporations they work for from legislation and regulation. I think the problem is some people really buy into this Capitalist Narrative of "Free Markets". There is no such thing...Especially in America as the current crisis has hopefully taught you.

For almost every team up and down the paddock, this is a strictly optional lifestyle. For RLR, Risi, Extreme Motorsport, RSR, Pratt & Miller, all the LMPC teams and a majority of GTC teams this is their livelihood.

These are the types of teams that should be up and down the paddock. This is why I think the ALMS doesn't quite get the following it deserves.

Too many pretenders to the throne.

Grand Am - one or two steps above Club Racing

ALMS - half a step below Big Time Professional Auto Racing

[MJ_N_09]

What?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

What?

You want the Cliff Notes version?

1. Too many Americans buy into "Free Market" BS
2. ALMS fans have a weird obsession of rooting for the terminally uncompetitive
3. ALMS fans try to project their views of the economics of racing through the eyes of a wealth privateer
4. ALMS the Series or the Teams can't seem to find Mainstream Sponsors common in Indy Car and even NASCAR Nationwide
5. Dyson Should Have Changed Engine Suppliers after its DNF in Utah
6. Far Too Many ALMS teams are "Happy To Be Here" and don't approach racing like the business that it is.
7. Which is why the ALMS is somewhere below a serious Big Time Professional Series its Pro-Am racing trying to be more, its not working

[fieldodreams79]

This thread title brings to mind some of my/our experience(s) at PLM:

We bring our pick up trucks to tent camp in the mud or dusty clay (depending) of turn 4, "drinking beer and eating brats" as well as digesting other related food and beverages, mostly strong and deep fried, becoming generally obnoxious at some point in the mid afternoon, occasionally discussing late model stockcar racing and listening to an assortment of loud music well past "quiet time" in the "family camping" section of Road ATL.

Meanwhile, the folks who have their motor-coaches parked in the turns 6 & 7 area on the blacktop, accompanied by their expensive European sportscars, have wine and cheese spreads that would make Bruce Wayne proud, and as the lot of us wonder by, stained orange from the knees down, reeking of Johnsonville brats and blue ribbon beer, they look over the top of their wine glasses, down upon us, wondering when RoadATL will stop allowing "common people" in to the exclusive back side of the circuit.

In the end, we're all race fans.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

This thread title brings to mind some of my/our experience(s) at PLM:

We bring our pick up trucks to tent camp in the mud or dusty clay (depending) of turn 4, "drinking beer and eating brats" as well as digesting other related food and beverages, mostly strong and deep fried, becoming generally obnoxious at some point in the mid afternoon, occasionally discussing late model stockcar racing and listening to an assortment of loud music well past "quiet time" in the "family camping" section of Road ATL.

Meanwhile, the folks who have their motor-coaches parked in the turns 6 & 7 area on the blacktop, accompanied by their expensive European sportscars, have wine and cheese spreads that would make Bruce Wayne proud, and as the lot of us wonder by, stained orange from the knees down, reeking of Johnsonville brats and blue ribbon beer, they look over the top of their wine glasses, down upon us, wondering when RoadATL will stop allowing "common people" in to the exclusive back side of the circuit.

In the end, we're all race fans.

Actually, I didn't get that feeling, but that was probably because I was with the GTech FSAE guys and maybe there's some respect for them. Of course, I was too distracted by the whole spectacle to really notice if I was being looked down upon. But we were tented up in the esses, bratin' and beerin' with the best of them.




Protip: Don't go for a midnight stroll while drunk. The police don't take kindly to midnight tomfoolery, and the hill cones always need adjustment.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

You want the Cliff Notes version?

1. Too many Americans buy into "Free Market" BS
2. ALMS fans have a weird obsession of rooting for the terminally uncompetitive
3. ALMS fans try to project their views of the economics of racing through the eyes of a wealth privateer
4. ALMS the Series or the Teams can't seem to find Mainstream Sponsors common in Indy Car and even NASCAR Nationwide
5. Dyson Should Have Changed Engine Suppliers after its DNF in Utah
6. Far Too Many ALMS teams are "Happy To Be Here" and don't approach racing like the business that it is.
7. Which is why the ALMS is somewhere below a serious Big Time Professional Series its Pro-Am racing trying to be more, its not working

You haven't been watching sports car racing for very long, have you?

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Actually, I didn't get that feeling, but that was probably because I was with the GTech FSAE guys and maybe there's some respect for them. Of course, I was too distracted by the whole spectacle to really notice if I was being looked down upon. But we were tented up in the esses, bratin' and beerin' with the best of them.

PLM is a spectacle, indeed...

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Protip: Don't go for a midnight stroll while drunk. The police don't take kindly to midnight tomfoolery, and the hill cones always need adjustment.

Drunken, midnight tomfoolery at PLM? What's that?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

PLM is a spectacle, indeed...




Drunken, midnight tomfoolery at PLM? What's that?

[JAG]

Far Too Many ALMS teams are "Happy To Be Here" and don't approach racing like the business that it is.

Or perhaps they are happy to just be on the grid at the present time but have ambitions to improve when the opportunity arrises.

Who's to say Dyson won't be a force next season with a couple of P1's and Roush motors.

How about Drayson moving upto two cars with at least one all pro line-up.

Then there's Intersport who have all sorts of options in P1, P2 and LMPC.

You have to accept the peaks and troughs in sportscar racing.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

You haven't been watching sports car racing for very long, have you?

That's the second time you said that.

Not sure what it has to do with my opinions.

Length of time tolerating sub-par competition for two straight seasons has little to do with previous Sports Car History. Today things are quite a bit different.

[dj4monie]

What I mostly wanted to focus on is the lack of mainstream sponsorships in the series. This is more than likely because the LMP field which gets most of the TV time is the weakest with the weakest teams left in it besides Highcroft and MAYBE Dyson.

And the focus some fans have on detractors like myself and TWK and others with more flowery outlooks.

As Field Of Dreams said, there is a very large faction of the fan base that's working class, camped out on the grass or the dirt. Maybe up in the stands, but go to a race or two every season. How come many mainstream products are not being peddled in the ALMS when you'll find these same fans in the Supermarket and Big Box Stores???

I also keep saying ALMS gets similar TV numbers to other series with mainstream sponsors (and different demographics) so what gives? How come the Risi Ferrari's don't have Big Red Gum on them? Or Orbit Sugar-free gum?

This is a symptom of the types of teams in the ALMS or the fact that the series is not as attractive to sponsors?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

What I mostly wanted to focus on is the lack of mainstream sponsorships in the series. This is more than likely because the LMP field which gets most of the TV time is the weakest with the weakest teams left in it besides Highcroft and MAYBE Dyson.

And the focus some fans have on detractors like myself and TWK and others with more flowery outlooks.

As Field Of Dreams said, there is a very large faction of the fan base that's working class, camped out on the grass or the dirt. Maybe up in the stands, but go to a race or two every season. How come many mainstream products are not being peddled in the ALMS when you'll find these same fans in the Supermarket and Big Box Stores???

I also keep saying ALMS gets similar TV numbers to other series with mainstream sponsors (and different demographics) so what gives? How come the Risi Ferrari's don't have Big Red Gum on them? Or Orbit Sugar-free gum?

This is a symptom of the types of teams in the ALMS or the fact that the series is not as attractive to sponsors?

You answered your own question.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

You answered your own question.

Then why is that and is it preventable/fixable?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by JAG

Or perhaps they are happy to just be on the grid at the present time but have ambitions to improve when the opportunity arrises.

Who's to say Dyson won't be a force next season with a couple of P1's and Roush motors.

How about Drayson moving upto two cars with at least one all pro line-up.

Then there's Intersport who have all sorts of options in P1, P2 and LMPC.

You have to accept the peaks and troughs in sportscar racing.

Here's my formula for determining next year's sportscar grid sizes, as far as privateers are concerned. Manufacturer entries and the addition of new classes can of course seriously screw up the equation :

a: current number of entrants
b: number of strong rumors for next year
c: grid size in the next season

c= a - a/5 + b/3

For ALMS that means 6 - 1 (perhaps Autocon, Cytosport quitting, maybe also Drayson being off to ILMC) +1 (pick one of 2nd Dyson, 2nd Highcroft, 2nd Drayson or a new team.)

So prototype grids should remain pretty much stagnant with perhaps an ever so slight tendency towards a light increase...

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Then why is that and is it preventable/fixable?

Really? It's motorsport in America, amigo. That's the way it's gonna be.

[rdt012237]

I know it was rented out by the Mid-Ohio track but,,,
Did any notice the big blue billboard behind the keyhole at yesterdays race? It had one word one it. With the camera placement behind turn on as they covered the straight up to turn two it looked like all of the cars were racing to "WALMART

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Really? It's motorsport in America, amigo. That's the way it's gonna be.

That's complete horse-dodo.

ALMS does not have a full-time marketing staff and seemingly taking suggestions from the teams and the fan base. Not a bad thing, but I think the LMP side of the paddock is full of people that do not know how to run a professional racing operation, so they don't not how to attract sponsors either.

I suspect we'll see more "Drink Responsible" PSA's from Patron going forward, how about showing them during other people's races and not your own series?

I also think the other problem is sub-par racing at the front for two straight seasons. The LMP2 had all kinds of mainstream sponsorship but all run by teams that know how to get sponsors (Andretti-Green, Robert Clark and Penske). You are lacking that in LMP currently and I have no faith in Drayson, because at the end of the day results speak loudly when trying to attract sponsors.

That being said, if The Lord puts money on the hood of his race cars, then getting sponsors will be bit simpler.

There's no hope for Intersport or Autocon.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Here's my formula for determining next year's sportscar grid sizes, as far as privateers are concerned. Manufacturer entries and the addition of new classes can of course seriously screw up the equation :

a: current number of entrants
b: number of strong rumors for next year
c: grid size in the next season

c= a - a/5 + b/3

For ALMS that means 6 - 1 (perhaps Autocon, Cytosport quitting, maybe also Drayson being off to ILMC) +1 (pick one of 2nd Dyson, 2nd Highcroft, 2nd Drayson or a new team.)

So prototype grids should remain pretty much stagnant with perhaps an ever so slight tendency towards a light increase...

I honestly think Highcroft will be running some version of the 2012 HPD/Honda Indy V6. Since its 2.4L and a bespoke engine, it can be sleeved down to 2.0L or cast as a 2.0L that can be bored up to 2.4L. Its also single turbo, but that's hardly a big deal, you have the space for twin turbos in a Prototype.

I seriously doubt if Drayson was smart would go the Judd route, its not enough to challenge the factories if your going to continue in LMP1. I'd say likely Engine supplier will be HPD as well. But I think a condition of the technical support will be front line drivers in both cars to maximize the chances to win.

If he insist on driving his cars, then he'll have to look elsewhere and honestly your only other choice will likely be Mazda. They'll have to get to the bottom of the fuel issues they experienced in Europe and that's likely to mean some additional investment.

Another possibility is Ford... But hold on a second.

Are you saying the key to any increased sponsorship or marketing will have to come from quality teams and these are the two quality teams?

I think this is where Greg Pickett wants to be. His options are likely to be Porsche technical partner. I think since Porsche already has an engine, its only a matter of coming up with a business case for racing LMP1 to the board.

Its totally possible that Porsche continues to build cars that customers can buy, even if its an LMP1 car, but it won't be cheap. If people were squawking about the Million Dollar price tag of the Spyder, I'm sure an LMP1 with professional drivers capable of beating Audi and Peugeot at the very least will be at least 2-3 Million, maybe more if you include all the Porsche techs.

I agree with you overall however that LMP will grow not with new teams joining though I don't rule that out, but with current teams expanding or returning to full strength.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Meanwhile, the folks who have their motor-coaches parked in the turns 6 & 7 area on the blacktop, accompanied by their expensive European sportscars, have wine and cheese spreads that would make Bruce Wayne proud, and as the lot of us wonder by, stained orange from the knees down, reeking of Johnsonville brats and blue ribbon beer, they look over the top of their wine glasses, down upon us, wondering when RoadATL will stop allowing "common people" in to the exclusive back side of the circuit.

In the end, we're all race fans.

I feel sorry for them.

Originally Posted by JAG

Or perhaps they are happy to just be on the grid at the present time but have ambitions to improve when the opportunity arrises.

Who's to say Dyson won't be a force next season with a couple of P1's and Roush motors.

How about Drayson moving upto two cars with at least one all pro line-up.

Then there's Intersport who have all sorts of options in P1, P2 and LMPC.

You have to accept the peaks and troughs in sportscar racing.

Hey look a little optimism. The offseason pessimism has moved in mid-season for some reason.

Originally Posted by dj4monie

That's complete horse-dodo.

There's no hope for Intersport or Autocon.

Did you watch the last two races? Were you entertained? I was. If you weren't, your just not going to be happy.

As for Intersport and Autocon. Why isn't there hope? Why does there need to be?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I feel sorry for them.

Did you watch the last two races? Were you entertained? I was. If you weren't, your just not going to be happy.

As for Intersport and Autocon. Why isn't there hope? Why does there need to be?

I watched Intersport circulate for about an hour before they made their final stop and driver change. To be honest it would have been a feel good moment for the series for them to win overall, but honesty I was waiting for the wheels to fall off and sure enough, as I have said before, they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Leading at Long Beach only for hopes to be dashed with a fuel leak. Do you know how long that fuel leak was there? I doubt it just appeared when they came in for a driver change.

Preparation doesn't cost that much more and if that means hiring another full time mechanic to do it, means you don't get delayed by rare problems that don't happen to other teams and you just might win.

I can't stand the "Golly Gee Wally" nature of people being disappointed with The Fields. They have been in the series long enough to know what it takes to win and again in a very weak LMP Championship they have not managed to figure into any of the races late in the going.

Just be honest with yourself, they don't want to spend any more money than they have too. If that means a series of DNF's and a lucky Class Win every so often and makes them happy so be it.

That doesn't mean I have to like it and cheer for it.

[JAG]

Things could change very quickly for Intersport if they get a bulletproof P1 engine package within their budget or step down to P2 with teams and driving squads at a similar level.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

Things could change very quickly for Intersport if they get a bulletproof P1 engine package within their budget or step down to P2 with teams and driving squads at a similar level.

IF? They took on pay drivers in 2007, 2008 and part of 2009. I will give them this, they took one of their existing chassis, sent it back to the UK for a full makeover and update.

Again, preparation seems to had failed them as a suspension mounting point came apart and John was a passenger. Destroyed that car, they haven't replaced it as far as I know, that would have meant buying a new car! How many of these B05/6 cars are around?

Can't be that many. (that's the second one they have destroyed, Petit Le Mans 2008)

They have not shown any desire to buy new hardware. They bought a LMPC solely to put Pay Drivers in it, as a profit center. Now that doesn't mean they can't kick out the pay drivers and field the car themselves in LMPC if it remains or LMP2 if everybody upgrades.

I doubt they will purchase another new chassis, especially not an LMP1 chassis. They don't want to spend the money.

What they doing is putting the car together with bailing wire and masking tape. They put it on the grid and hope it finishes. Most of you guys go "aww that's a shame" I say its preventable and expected as long as they carry-on this way.

Autocon is in the same boat, that's why they showed up at Le Mans with one complete transmission built from two.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

That's complete horse-dodo.

When was the last time motorsports even touched stick and ball as far as ratings? the U of Tennessee athletic department probably makes more money than IndyCar and ALMS combined, and that's when the money maker(football) hasn't won a championship in 12 years.


The moment the ALMS tries to go after the stick and ball crowd, is the moment they resign themselves to death. It's a niche motorsport, for one, so it needs to find more fans of that niche. People who like sportscars, technology, or the finer things in life.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

IF? They took on pay drivers in 2007, 2008 and part of 2009. I will give them this, they took one of their existing chassis, sent it back to the UK for a full makeover and update.

Again, preparation seems to had failed them as a suspension mounting point came apart and John was a passenger. Destroyed that car, they haven't replaced it as far as I know, that would have meant buying a new car! How many of these B05/6 cars are around?

Can't be that many. (that's the second one they have destroyed, Petit Le Mans 2008)

They have not shown any desire to buy new hardware. They bought a LMPC solely to put Pay Drivers in it, as a profit center. Now that doesn't mean they can't kick out the pay drivers and field the car themselves in LMPC if it remains or LMP2 if everybody upgrades.

I doubt they will purchase another new chassis, especially not an LMP1 chassis. They don't want to spend the money.

What they doing is putting the car together with bailing wire and masking tape. They put it on the grid and hope it finishes. Most of you guys go "aww that's a shame" I say its preventable and expected as long as they carry-on this way.

dj4monie: if only the teams and owners followed his instructions and spent their own money how he tells them to spend, racing would be better.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

When was the last time motorsports even touched stick and ball as far as ratings?

In this country, NASCAR and the Indy 500 still now even though both have declined.