FISCAR FLIERS - 1950s 1100cc Racing & 1500cc Production Sports Racing Series

[begbier]

I'm curious as to whether there has ever been a historic series exclusively catering for sports racers with 1100cc or below?

Or, alternatively, a well supported class for such smaller displacement cars within a broader series? Something that effectively recreated the 1100cc and 1500cc classes of the late '50s.

[rogerwills]

I don't think so. If you look at all the smaller engine cars in pre-66 sports racing (Lotus 23B, Elva Mk7 etc) less and less of them seem to be out and running these days. There used to be a lot in Masters Sports Racing Masters. HSCC Guards Trophy still get a few as well. But there don't seem to be as many racing now as there were a few years ago. And I've never seen anything exclusively for very small capacity cars. I doubt it would be viable.

[PeterMorley]

When European historic racing took off in the mid 80s there were FIA & FISA Championships (or Trophys as they called them) for sports cars upto 1450cc (with an 1100 class) and a 1960 cut-off date.

They attracted a lot of Lola Mark 1s, Lotus 11s & 17s etc. to all the original historic racing festivals (Nurburgring, Monza, Montlhery, Zolder, Spa etc) but many of them ran 1220s, since they were more common and therefore much cheaper (which was important in those non-professional historic racing days).

The "exotic" big engined cars like Lotus 15s etc (!!) were much rarer and too expensive for most people to run in those days, so the grids tended to be pretty much as the 50s amateur events.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

When European historic racing took off in the mid 80s there were FIA & FISA Championships (or Trophys as they called them) for sports cars upto 1450cc (with an 1100 class) and a 1960 cut-off date.

They attracted a lot of Lola Mark 1s, Lotus 11s & 17s etc. to all the original historic racing festivals (Nurburgring, Monza, Montlhery, Zolder, Spa etc) but many of them ran 1220s, since they were more common and therefore much cheaper (which was important in those non-professional historic racing days).

The "exotic" big engined cars like Lotus 15s etc (!!) were much rarer and too expensive for most people to run in those days, so the grids tended to be pretty much as the 50s amateur events.

Mmmm I like the sound of that.

[John Turner]

Rod, good to hear from you and food for thought ......... mmmmm.

[Mistron]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

If you look at all the smaller engine cars in pre-66 sports racing (Lotus 23B, Elva Mk7 etc) less and less of them seem to be out and running these days.

certainly not with small engines - Seems that every 23 built was originaly built as a 23B with a twin cam????? All of the period articles were apparently mistaken.

shame really. Some of the most interesting cars are the one off specials which ran in those classes. So far i've owned 'Pandora' :mid mounted A-Series engine, the Coldwell Mink: front engined 1000cc A Series F3 / clubmans car (split beam front axle but IRS!) and my current unknown project - maybe 1100 sports racer, early clubmans, F1200?????

They seem to have been a mainstay of club events in the mid 50s to mid 60s, but this doesn't seem to fit in with the high end sportscar grids seen at historic meetings - 'History isn't what it was' and all that

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Mistron

certainly not with small engines - Seems that every 23 built was originaly built as a 23B with a twin cam????? All of the period articles were apparently mistaken.

shame really. Some of the most interesting cars are the one off specials which ran in those classes. So far i've owned 'Pandora' :mid mounted A-Series engine, the Coldwell Mink: front engined 1000cc A Series F3 / clubmans car (split beam front axle but IRS!) and my current unknown project - maybe 1100 sports racer, early clubmans, F1200?????

They seem to have been a mainstay of club events in the mid 50s to mid 60s, but this doesn't seem to fit in with the high end sportscar grids seen at historic meetings - 'History isn't what it was' and all that

Very true and what is crazy is you can have a car that was very well known, raced a lot and is original but because it never competed in an International event is not acceptable for historic racing.

Cars like the Rochdale Olympic that was raced by John Anstice-Brown, given he was editor of Motor magazine its exploits are rather well documented, but since he lived on an island (GB) the events he competed in were only National.

But you can take an old road car, that at best only ever appeared in the public carpark at a motor race, and modify it beyond recognition and enter that in historic races.

And if you do have a car of a type that did race Internationally you can change that to a spec. that it never raced in at the time - Lotus 23s with twin-cams (presumably even they will be upgraded to BMWs soon), Lotus Eleven Clubs with FWBs and De-Dions rather than their original Ford sidevalve/solid rear axle....

So much for nostalgia, historics has almost become a contemporary race series but with cars that claim to be old.

[John Turner]

Well as a well known prepper has said to me, on more than one occasion, you can't undo 50 years of knowledge. However, equally, if you organise your own series you can lay down regs that attempt to draw out the cars that are as close to original as you can get subject to currrent safety requirements and an element of practical realism to ensure that whilst you have sensible policing you don't have to continually resort to time consuming and costly scrutineering. It's what we have been working towards with our FISCAR series. If you guys seriously want a Pre 60 1100 (or up to 1500cc) sports racing series, PM me with some proposals. No promises, mind, but we might as well explore the possibility to establish whether there is sufficient demand or whether ultimately, it's even practical or realistic to pursue it.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Well as a well known prepper has said to me, on more than one occasion, you can't undo 50 years of knowledge. However, equally, if you organise your own series you can lay down regs that attempt to draw out the cars that are as close to original as you can get subject to currrent safety requirements and an element of practical realism to ensure that whilst you have sensible policing you don't have to continually resort to time consuming and costly scrutineering. It's what we have been working towards with our FISCAR series. If you guys seriously want a Pre 60 1100 (or up to 1500cc) sports racing series, PM me with some proposals. No promises, mind, but we might as well explore the possibility to establish whether there is sufficient demand or whether ultimately, it's even practical or realistic to pursue it.

Fair enough.
It's a similar story with other types of cars, like the turbo F1s, there are a number of people who want to run them but they need to get together and present race organisers with a reasonable number of cars.
The main problem I see is persuading people that have fitted larger engines for FIA races (e.g. Lotus Elevens) to fit an 1100, so that they can compete on a level playing field with cars like Elva Mark 1s or Lotus 17s where no one has found an example running a larger engine internationally in period.
There are a lot of eligible cars around and it would make great racing since they look good and the small engines mean the difference between the best and worst engines is less significant which should make for close racing, but, as always, it would take time to persuade a lot of the owners to get involved.

[John Turner]

First step is to build a register of suitable cars and their owners. Anyone up for it, or, if individual owners want to contact me by PM with details of what they've got, I'll start one, and we can go from there.

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Fair enough.
It's a similar story with other types of cars, like the turbo F1s, there are a number of people who want to run them but they need to get together and present race organisers with a reasonable number of cars.
The main problem I see is persuading people that have fitted larger engines for FIA races (e.g. Lotus Elevens) to fit an 1100, so that they can compete on a level playing field with cars like Elva Mark 1s or Lotus 17s where no one has found an example running a larger engine internationally in period.
There are a lot of eligible cars around and it would make great racing since they look good and the small engines mean the difference between the best and worst engines is less significant which should make for close racing, but, as always, it would take time to persuade a lot of the owners to get involved.

What an GREAT idea !!!!!!!
I am getting a 1954 Kieft Climax ready.
The first car to use the FWA engine, and only in 1100cc form.

I would support the idea to revive 1100 sport racing.
My concept would be to start off with a high profile one off trial race similar to what Roger Wills is doing for early 3 litre F1 cars with the Race of Champions.
If that first race is a success You can grow it into a series bit by bit.
I would be willing to kick start start this and assume the financial risk of that first race whole or in parts if somebody is willing to share this.
The key question is of course with which seriers of promotor to buy that race slot.
HSCC / Masters / Legends / any other suggestions ?

As to Lotus 11 et al that run 1460 FWBs: Thats quite simple.
If 1100cc racing is once again made into the success that it was in the 1950ies, people will want in and will convert their cars back.....

Most conversions just happened because it is not that much fun to be chased by a Lister Jaguar like a hare.
Some series like the Guards Trophy just group sports racers just by age.
Guards SRA class covers a spread from 1100 CC Lotus to Lister Jaguar.
In this case You want to be 1460 cc if that is possible.

Rudolf

[Mistron]

Not wishing to hyjack this thread, but as it's related, does anyone recognse this chassis? I think it's either an early clubmans, F1172 /F1200 or 1100cc car. The back axle is BMC (Spridget/Minor), and the mounts look to suit the A series engine.







The back axle modifications are quite distinctive, but in it's current state without any bodywork , and the roll hoop having been removed (along with the rear bodywork support tubes by the look of it) there isn't a lot to go on by way of identifiable features, I know.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[John Turner]

OK, so I've had PMs from several of you already, so clearly there is some interest. Peter Morley and I are starting a register. I'm deferring to Peter on the technical side, so what we are looking at is two classes:-

1) 1100cc 'racing' engines (e.g. Climax FWA)

2) 1500cc for 'production' engines (e.g. MG),

How that would pan out in practice I don't know, and of course, the numbers involved will dictate how or whether we can advance this further. So anyone with a suitable car, who simply at this stage wants to be placed on the register, please PM me.

I hasten to add that this is nothing to do with FISCAR* (but it surely is a great template!) since this has happened so quickly that my colleagues will know nothing about it. It is just Peter and I at this stage developing an idea to see where it takes us.

Rudolf, I note all your ideas and hope that you are on board, and your offer is generous indeed. However, you are already thinking high profile events and organisers. Roger's approach was absolutely right for high profile F1 cars but I'm not sure that is where we want to be with this. My own view is to generate a less intense arena providing more of the old fashioned club atmosphere of motor racing. More grass roots, if you like, as we have tried to do with FISCAR. Some competitors just want to enjoy the low key camaraderie and ambience associated with an earlier period. However, what do others think, and remember we are starting now almost from scratch so let's see the level of interest in all this first.

* It is now! - JT (29/5)

[Peter Mallett]

Not sure if it does any good, but I've just stuck this on Facebook.

[Mistron]

in 1100cc I could see Climax, BMC, Ford, Fiat Triumph? engines, in 1500, you'd have BMC, Ford, Porsche etc any others - Alfa, fiat?

perhaps a pre and post '60 class in each size?

I've always thought what the Goodwood revival needs is a race for Lotus seven type cars - S1 & 2, Mallocks, Chevron B1 &2, maybe even taking in some F1200s etc , but then I'm biased!

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Mistron

in 1100cc I could see Climax, BMC, Ford, Fiat Triumph? engines, in 1500, you'd have BMC, Ford, Porsche etc any others - Alfa, fiat?

perhaps a pre and post '60 class in each size?

I've always thought what the Goodwood revival needs is a race for Lotus seven type cars - S1 & 2, Mallocks, Chevron B1 &2, maybe even taking in some F1200s etc , but then I'm biased!

My initial thought was that 1100 Climaxes and 1500 MG XPAG engines produce a similar amount of power, and they were the most common engines in the 50s, at least amongst club/privateer racers.

Of course other engines were around and used at the time, the idea would be to try to even out their performance (e.g. avoid one offering a significant advantage).

Sidevalve Fords were also popular but won't produce as much power, even with the best efforts of Aquaplane or Elva.

Anglia and A-series (even Alfa) are problematic since they have received almost continual development since they were introduced, so the question is what capacity would keep them on par with the Climax & MG, is it 1100 or even 1000cc?

1220 Climaxes could be acceptable if they were restricted in some way, possibly limiting them to twin SUs rather than twin DCOEs?

Fiat 1100s did appear in various forms and as long as they aren't as cleverly re-engineered as certain Junior engines wouldn't offer an unfair advantage.

Ideas/thoughts/experiences along those lines would be appreciated - maybe a rev-limit would reduce the advantage of some better developed engines?
A minimum weight would probably be a necessity as well...

As for the cars, the problem with accepting Lotus Sevens is also their continual development.
Lotus Sixes are pretty safe bets and at least Series 1 Sevens but if you start taking the later cars you might end up with another Caterham series, and there are hopefully a load of less common (how do I say more interesting without offending Seven owners?) cars out there.

Monoposto (I think it was them?) have been holding races for their early cars like the Mallocks etc, but if their performance and powerplants are appropriate I see no issue with them and the early Ginettas etc.

It really depends on how many cars there are, filling a grid with cars of a similar age (and possibly engine location) has to be preferable, the problem with having a large age range is that the newer cars are usually quicker which doesn't help bring the earlier cars out.

There is a split somewhere between the early 50s & early 60s that leaves you with two well matched sets of cars - I'm suspecting it occurs somewhere around the Cooper Bobtail. But that is getting ahead of ourselves, one race is enough of a challenge let alone two seperate series...

Peter

[John Turner]

Great post, Peter. There are a couple in there - Lotus 6 and 7 S1 which, provided they are original unmodded types would fit our FISCAR series, so obviously, I'd be encouraging them in that direction, since in effect, I see this new initiative as the small 'sports racing car' equivalent of FISCAR to a certain extent. FISCAR cars are road cars, adapted for racing whereas, I see this for cars built from scratch for the track. I also wonder, like you, whether we should at this stage stick to front engined cars, which would also have the effect of making it primarily pre 60 which was, I think, our starting point.

[PeterMorley]

Ultimately what takes part depends on what people are prepared to bring.
In theory there should be a lot more front engined 50s cars than 60s cars since that is when the class was most popular.

I'm also wondering if we are only talking about open cars, which rules out something like a Climax engined Rochdale Olympic, TVR etc., but they aren't purely track cars anyway.

One issue I have is with the appearance of historic cars, where I like to see an instrument panel with period instruments, switches/warning lights and appropriate seats, but that could presumably only be advisory?

[John Turner]

Well again, I see cars like the TVR and Rochdale being FISCAR cars. I think, yes, they will mainly be open cars, but wouldn't exclude sprts racers fitted with hard tops - I think there were a few so adapted.

[John Turner]

Very pleased to announce that this is now an official FISCAR sanctioned project. The aim is to build a register as previously described and to gauge the demand for a Uk club race series for these cars.

Anyone interested with (or has knowledge of) suitable car please contact Peter Morley and/or myself by PM.

[Peter Mallett]

John,

Can I suggest another means of contact? Only 10/10s members can pm each other and that may well limit the feedback. How about setting up a combined gmail account to allow non members to also provide info?

[Rudernst]

what is FISCAR ?

Rudolf


hmmm...
google first, post later
found it: Fiscar.org

[Peter Mallett]

Rudolph,

A brief outline for you with link to their website.

http://mallettracing.blogspot.com/20...ar-racing.html

[Mistron]

fingers crossed that there is enough interest for this to become a success!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

John,

Can I suggest another means of contact? Only 10/10s members can pm each other and that may well limit the feedback. How about setting up a combined gmail account to allow non members to also provide info?

Great idea but how do you do that; I'm ignorant about such matters!