Red flag after the chequer

[graeme]

First couple of cars take the chequer, then there's a big final corner shunt, so someone decides to throw the red flag. When should the result be declared from?

[johngee]

There's a couple of similar situations that have gone to Motor Sports Council. It's difficult to have a hard and fast rule in those circumstances but my decision, were I faced with it, would be to declare the results at the end of the previous lap, in accordance with the red flag 'rules' (I don't have my Blue Book with me!). The problem then could be an appeal by one of the drivers that did take the chequered flag if, by going back a lap, it changed their positions. At that point, I'd refer it to the Stewards and hide in a dark room!

[Ian Sowman]

You'd need to go back a lap surely, as not everybody would have completed the final lap (presumably).

[graeme]

You'd think that, wouldn't you? But, after a protest, the BRSCC CoC changed the order to that of crossing the line. I guess this is because the first three had already seen the chequered flag. But it does suggest that you should race to the chequer if a red shown in the last few moments Some guys lost places in the confusion which they ain't chuffed about. I see no reason to even cross the finish line if a red has been shown...

I guess the question is, should you throw a red after the chequer has been shown?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by graeme

I guess the question is, should you throw a red after the chequer has been shown?

That's a very good point and probably the right answer!

[Ian Sowman]

I don't know the blue book inside out, but pure logic dictates that you shouldn't have one rule for every other lap of the race and a different one for the last one. Strange.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

I don't know the blue book inside out, but pure logic dictates that you shouldn't have one rule for every other lap of the race and a different one for the last one. Strange.

Blue Book - Logic - Same sentance??????

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by graeme

I guess the question is, should you throw a red after the chequer has been shown?

Something vaguely similar at Lydden this weekend - in one race a car had gone off in a dangerous position and the race was red flagged (still had plenty to run). Another saw two cars off at the same place but it was the final lap so waved yellows were thrown on a lot of (all?) posts and the cars then took the chequered flag. Seemed a sensible way to go about it - the waved yellows stopped any 'racing' on the circuit but still allowed everyone to take the chequered flag - no count back needed either.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

You'd need to go back a lap surely, as not everybody would have completed the final lap (presumably).

Seems to be the sensible one. From a purely safety point of view the red flag should 'win' over all others.

In theory you could call the results for those who finished the race before the checquered at full distance and those who hadn't finished when the red was thrown from the lap before. However there are issues with lapped cars and it would be needlessly messy for race control. Especially at club meetings which probably aren't geared up to knowing when the red flew to the second.

It should be the lap before the red. If you have lost out because of it then it is hard cheese.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by graeme

I guess the question is, should you throw a red after the chequer has been shown?

In some circumstances (such as the one at Donington on Sunday to which you are referring) absolutely YES! No ifs, no buts.

The situation was that the leaders going for the chequered became involved in a many car incident which led to four or five immobile cars in the middle of the circuit. These were all just round the final corner, Goddards, and hence invisible to the rest of the (very large) field, all going for the flag.

It was necessary to protect the scene (and the oncoming pack) and a red flag was needed and shown.

While I'm very glad I did not have to decide on what happened to the results (who'd be a clerk? ), it seems to me that:

• A there ought to be a clear Blue book ruling and
• B this ought to make it absolutely clear that no driver will lose out by obeying the red flag and slowing/stopping.

Easy to say but I can see the difficulties in devising a suitable Regulation.

Regards

Jim

[Asp]

Jim's hit the point on the button - some times a red flag is the only option, chequered flag or not.

However, I remember reading the last issue of Motorsports Now and a judicial case about where a race was red flagged after the finish. The problem was about a lack of a chequered flag - however I'm fairly sure that amongst all the considerations it was mentioned that if the red flag was shown after some cars have finished the race, but not all, then standard Blue Book red-flag procedures need to be followed.

You can't do it any other way - if you're going to do it on finish line positions then what's the point in showing the red if you've still got to race to the stripe, as graeme says.

[graeme]

I think the protest was along the lines of:

Penultimate lap of a (2006) GP: Schumacher in the lead, Alonso in close second. Alonso passes Schumacher on the final lap to take the win. Schumacher radios Ross Brawn to tell Barrichello to cause havoc. Barrichello hits a tyre wall and three other cars - debris everywhere. So a red flag is thrown. And the result is counted back a lap - Alonso no longer wins - Schumacher does...

Great arguement; but no relationship to anything I can find stated in the Blue Book...


I quite like Adam's idea that anyone who's seen the chequer is placed in that position, and everyone else is classified as one lap previous. But that's not in the BB either. How do you go about getting the BB altered!!??

[Jamie G]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Something vaguely similar at Lydden this weekend - in one race a car had gone off in a dangerous position and the race was red flagged (still had plenty to run). Another saw two cars off at the same place but it was the final lap so waved yellows were thrown on a lot of (all?) posts and the cars then took the chequered flag. Seemed a sensible way to go about it - the waved yellows stopped any 'racing' on the circuit but still allowed everyone to take the chequered flag - no count back needed either.

There were also red flags out in that instance, I'm sure - It confused me as a spectator as there were cars nearly a lap behind that got a red flag. However if I remember correctly the reds came out first and then the chequered. Same difference?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Jamie G

There were also red flags out in that instance, I'm sure - It confused me as a spectator as there were cars nearly a lap behind that got a red flag. However if I remember correctly the reds came out first and then the chequered. Same difference?

Ah right. I didn't see any reds (there could well have been - I wasn't paying too much attention).

[johngee]

The first priority is safety - the action, the flags displayed etc. is an instant decision in order to deal with the incident, protect the marshals and competitors, deploy rescue and medical vehicles as quickly as possible etc.and the geography of the incident on the circuit has a bearing on that action. To sort out the results afterwards, you have the benefit of time and I would try and 'use' the rules (with a bit of common sense!) to achieve the fairest outcome possible. Sometimes easier said than done.

[graeme]

Are red flags any "safer"/more controlling than waved yellows, if there's only a hundred yards to go? They both signify the same thing to a driver - major incident - be prepared to stop (in fact, perhaps the yellow has more "oomph" as a red could be signifying an incident elsewhere on the circuit). But perhaps waved yellows are overused and they don't have as much impact as they should... Do we officially have double waved yellows?

I can't see how a classification can be put together for cars crossing the line after a red flag - looking in the BB the defination is "stop racing" - that's fairly final.

[JimW]

No provision for double yellows in the Blue book, only for races run under an International permit, i.e. under FIA rules. (In spite of the apparent introduction of them at Brands Hatch when snatching from a gravel trap in national races!)

I agree with you about yellows in principle except for that bit about "stopping racing". That is a key difference.

Regards

Jim

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by graeme

Are red flags any "safer"/more controlling than waved yellows, if there's only a hundred yards to go? They both signify the same thing to a driver - major incident - be prepared to stop (in fact, perhaps the yellow has more "oomph" as a red could be signifying an incident elsewhere on the circuit).

From my short experience trackside I'd say there is a big difference, irrespective of when & where. Drivers do visibly slow down when the red flag appears; yellows......

[Peter Harding]

John's absolutely correct. The main issue is safety and, if the red is needed, then it goes out and everyone has to live with the result.
If this happens after 50% (66%) and someone has just overtaken after several laps of trying, they will lose out on all that effort. You just cannot always have rules that are fair in all circumstances.
What we must ensure is that no-one uses the rules to cheat as suggested in the F1 cenario mentioned by Graeme. Sometimes people get confused about the diddefence between using the rules and cheating. It cannot be found in the rules but we all know where the line is.

[Alan Raine]

If say the first 3 pass the chequered flag before the red comes out, there race is over. Surely it makes some sense for them to keep the first 3 places and the rest from 4th down are decided by the red flag rule - or is that just too complicated!

[Ian Sowman]

So it should be done a different way at the end of the race to if a red flag goes out during the race Alan?

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

If say the first 3 pass the chequered flag before the red comes out, there race is over. Surely it makes some sense for them to keep the first 3 places and the rest from 4th down are decided by the red flag rule - or is that just too complicated!

Nice theory to reward the podium finishers, problem is when it's a nice close race and someone jumps onto the podium on that final lap.
So, they're in third on the chequered - but then also 4th on countback.
OK, you can work around it - if it was a P3/P4 swap on the final lap then you can work on finishing position. But it has the potential to get very very complicated very quickly.

Similarly confusing having two systems, for instance, where those who take the chequered have that result and those who finish under red flags go onto countback. Would be 'fair' that your result is the position to pass the chequered flag regardless of what happens after, but unworkable in practice...

[Tick Tock Man]

As the Blue Book is written (J5.4.4 on page 266) it is quite clear that if the red flag is shown then result is declared based on the order on the previous lap, regardless of any other flags that are shown. The point being that racing (should) cease immediately. I have seen many occasions where the lead has changed only for the order to be reversed on count back. A bit hard for those that have gained places as they then lose them due to no fault of their own.

I'm not sure if they still operate it but the ACU used to have a rule where the order was frozen at the time the red flag was shown. This would allow those that had already crossed the line to be classified in the order they had crossed and all those who had yet to cross the line were classified according to the order they had last crossed it. There was no count back. This rule would be used for a red flag at any time, not just when a result was declared, i.e it would be used to establish restart order.

All you had to do then we convince the results software that all these competitors who hadn't yet crossed the line were not DNFs and should be classified!

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Tick Tock Man

As the Blue Book is written (J5.4.4 on page 266) it is quite clear that if the red flag is shown then result is declared based on the order on the previous lap, regardless of any other flags that are shown.

In this case, the CoC didn't agree!


As an aside, Mr TTM, do you think it would be possible in a timed race where there are two classes to handicap the faster class by one-lap, to give the slower class a chance of winning overall?

[Tick Tock Man]

Originally Posted by graeme

In this case, the CoC didn't agree!

The result was based on the order the cars crossed the line after the red flag?

Originally Posted by graeme

As an aside, Mr TTM, do you think it would be possible in a timed race where there are two classes to handicap the faster class by one-lap, to give the slower class a chance of winning overall?

True handicap races can only be distance races, not timed races (the Birkett being the one exception!).