F1 survival?

[Wrex]

Since Valve and I hi-jacked another thread, I thought it appropriate to start a new one.

F1 is in trouble, no doubt about it.

We are already down to 10 teams, with another 2-3 not looking good. F1 can't/won't survive with 14 cars.

Whats more disturbing, is we can't see anything on the horizon. When prost was looking shaky, at least we knew Toyota were coming. The line for teams waiting for entry is non-existant at the moment, regardless of the $48 million deposit required.

Do they need to eliminate this? Do they need some changes in the concord agreement to make it easier for new teams to enter? How can this be done without hurting the current teams hard earned value?

What can Bernie, Max and the teams do to strengthen the sport?

[Valve Bounce]

They cannot forgo the $48 million refundable deposit - otherwise we would get that many schlocky teams trying to enter F1 with insufficient financial backing. It is not a matter of getting new teams to enter - it's retaining the present teams and the only way for Bernie to do this is start funneling more money (as I posted in the Lauda gone thread) for the lower order teams. Any long term cost cutting measures could initially cost that much that the poorer teams coud be financially killed off.

[Lee Janotta]

It's a bloated and top-heavy series beyond saving at this point without dynamic leadership which can immediatly revamp the rules, the schedule, and breath some desperatly needed life into the championship. Things are too boring, predictable... Downright corporate!

[JonesF1]

I would like to know what 2-3 teams arent going to be around soon. Minardi can survive on nothing, Jordan has way more money then Minardi, Jaguar isnt going anywhere right now, and why in gods name are people saying Sauber?

Why Arrows died when they had twice as much money as Minardi is anybodys guess but I dont see any other teams dropping off in the near future albeit some of them are going through a hard time.

[Lee Janotta]

Minardi will struggle to make 107% at all next year, assuming they can get engines. Jordan have too much overhead to run without major sponsors and a works deal. Sauber's survival hinges on the strength and continued interest of Petronas.

[JonesF1]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Minardi will struggle to make 107% at all next year, assuming they can get engines. Jordan have too much overhead to run without major sponsors and a works deal. Sauber's survival hinges on the strength and continued interest of Petronas.

Thanks for those insights. I havent seen a lot of people state clear facts, just a lot of team names being thrown around.

[Armco Bender]

otherwise we would get that many schlocky teams trying to enter F1 with insufficient financial backing

Who would care?,if you got an F1 car and you turn up and can make the 107% your in the race.Thats how they filled the grids in the 70's and 80's and they had no trouble doing it,I used to enjoy seeing privateers run against the big teams.Also don't forget there was a time when Williams,McLaren and Ferrari were schlocky and couldnt even qualify.

Isn't the Arrows saga due more to lack of good management from Tom Walkinshaw rather than just a lack of funds?

[f1manoz]

I'd like to see privateers entered at every race!! Get some local talent, or at least some other drivers capable of racing in F1, in some private cars.

Bring back private teams is what I say.... well, it's an idea at least...

[Armco Bender]

Thats the spirit f1manoz,down with the Billionaires Boy Club,lets give everyone a go at F1 the way it used to be.

[Red]

Originally posted by Wrex
We are already down to 10 teams, with another 2-3 not looking good. F1 can't/won't survive with 14 cars.

The Concorde Agreement stipulates that the teams are obliged to bring at least 20 cars on grid at every race. That is they'd make 3 cars per team if they have to. Not sure that this is the detail you all want to hear.

Anyway the s*** is big and is getting a crust and they all do realize that. I suspect that the big boys will try to 'help' the little boys. With some money, loans, delayed payments, some cheaper (even factory) engines, etc. I don't expect a repeat of 'Prost situation'.
-------------------

Originally posted by Armco BenderWho would care?,if you got an F1 car and you turn up and can make the 107% your in the race.

Everyone would care. If you can't prove that you have 48 million you got no car on grid. Unless 'customer chassis', heck, buy the whole car. But in that case why do we have Formula 1 anyway? Let's dump it and have only cart, saloon cars, or whatever anyother series that do not require you to actually build the car.

[Stephen Green]

In anyones language, £48 is a vast amount of money to have to put up for any team before it even gets near the grid. I say reduce the criteria for entry, allow three car teams (we have had them in the past) and try to help those further down the grid with 'factory' engines at reduced costs. If the proposed improvements to TV coverage are half as good as some think they will be, then viewing figures should increase. If so to have your name branded on more than your team's car makes commercial sence as it gives you a much greater chance of air time on TV. If we had 30 car grids the racing would be more exciting, even if it were to watch the overtaking of back markers. Do away with the stupid rule that says a driver has to move over or be penalised if he passes three blue flags before allowing the leader through. Make the leader work for his lead, don't hand it to him on a plate!

[Stephen Green]

That should have said £48 million of course...sorry

[Valve Bounce]

Stephen, I think it's $48 million, not 48 million quid.

[Red]

$48 million is big in every language but actually it's barely enough to run a Formula 1 team. For 1 year. We're talking about starting a team from scratch. If 48 million is the detail that you find difficult to overcome I believe that it's wiser to invest your money in something else. Besides, it's not a fee. Basically those $48 m are your budget for the first year. Not sure how exactly did they come to that precise amount but it's a good rule.

[DNQ]

The $48 million fee needs to be eliminated. TV money has to be split evenly. Prize Money should be limited, the rest of this money should be directed into teams TV money. Cost cutting measures should be taken.

[Red]

But it's NOT a fee! The money are refunded! With an interest too!!!!!!!

TV money and prize money are divided more evenly than we all expect!! For example, they're split in 2 and the first half is divided equally among every participant. Only 1 quarter is split according to last season's final standings. I agree, the last quarter is not exactly fair, as it is split according to 'hystorical' reasons (that is Ferrari gets the most, McLaren and Williams get something, etc. the last one being BAR)


PS: Sheese, did I say 'run a Formula 1 team'? Should read 'struggle to keep it afloat, in last position in standings' instead.

[Valve Bounce]

If you havn't got the $48 million deposit, which is refundable, then you might as well go start a bicycle rental shop. You'r not going to build a chassis that will pass the safety crash test, you're not going to get an engine, you're not going to get the blackbox to develop the car, and you're certainly won't have enough money to pay the staff. And you're certainly not going to be able to run an F1 team.

Originally posted by Armco Bender
Who would care?,if you got an F1 car and you turn up and can make the 107% your in the race.Thats how they filled the grids in the 70's and 80's and they had no trouble doing it,I used to enjoy seeing privateers run against the big teams.Also don't forget there was a time when Williams,McLaren and Ferrari were schlocky and couldnt even qualify.

I agree, the more teams the better. If they're **** they won't make the grid and get in the way of everyone during the race.

I remember they're being pre-qualifying sessions for some of the teams to even qualify to take part in the qualifying sessions. Late 80's if my hazy memory serves me well. The likes of Coloni and Rial.

A nice full grid of 24+ cars would be great. Even if some are milkfloats. It'll keep Herr Schumacher busy dodging around them if nothing else!

[Stephen Green]

Exactly, there is nothing worse for any audience than to see twelve cars spread out on a grad prix circuit. Lets get the number of cars up to 30.

I don't believe splitting the TV money evenly is fair at all. Perhaps the distribution should be changed so that the less successful teams get a little more. The whole point of TV money is to reward success.

[Stephen Green]

You have just argued against yourself Aussiefan! You say that success should be rewarded by TV money and then say those less successful should be given more TV money to encourage them. You can't have it both ways my friend

[golem]

Super budgets killed F1. It's TOO exclusive. We all know this. But those in the club don't want to let others play, and the death of the sport will be all their own stupid fault. They use tax dodges and cheats to get an edge and it all hurts them in the end. I 100% believe that if F1 was audited from head to toe, from engineer's families benefits through to god knows what, and there was a budget cap on a team's technical side then it would be an absolutely brilliant category. I'm not saying standardize the chassis and motor but give teams equal dev budgets for a car. Once that's down the rest is natural. It'll start coming back to the passionate ones, and people making a differance. Not sponsors and budgets buying people that make a differance.

Here's my first series of ideas that might work:
We know testing's expensive. Limit everyone to a set amount on any track, private or otherwise in between periods. Say, 8 hours each period break. NONE can be done during the four periods (Starting Tour, Europe A [then a testing period] Europe B, America-Japan). Then, for every X hours they'll trade, they pick up 2X in time usable at tracks. Also, to help drop costs down, ALL staff travel on prearranged 'bulk buy' transport, all vehichles shipped on the same ships and everyone has the same container volume limit heading to each race. This may jarr with some, but they can take their 1st class personal transports or whatever, but they still have to pitch in for the bulk by deals. But not on car and spares transport.
Finally, get some talented technicians to design a black-box ECU for the motor, ban Traction Control, another expensive item. Reintroducing slicks in combination with this and limiting aerodynamic aids (Rules can EASILY be made to help with this.) will also go a long way to increasing the effectiveness of good chassis and suspension design and setup, which is cheaper than wind tunnel testing and constant tyre development.

All are methods aimed at levelling out maximum possible expenditures.

Here's another idea: An F2 category. F2 has a more restricted, slightly slower setup, runs in the same races but ultimately is harder to win with. Ideally a 600kg limit with a 2.4 litre 8 cylinder motor, no winglets, limited trailing edges, control tyre (which isn't developed but the same compounds used by the winning team last season in F1). Privateers and what not use F2. Those who are big boys run F1. F2 category though can still get decent airtime for their sponsors in order to compete, but aimed at much lower budgets by also costing less to compete in.

[Red]

Originally posted by golem
But those in the club don't want to let others play, and the death of the sport will be all their own stupid fault.

Nonsense. They don't want to let anyone play that's true. Not 'others'.

Just a little question: why does not exist a F2 anymore?

[Stephen Green]

Red I think it does exist but in the guise of F3000?

Some good ideas, all of which will come to nowt because of the Concorde Agreement. That is the first obstacle that HAS to be removed before F1 can look forward.