Are single seaters better?

[StephenRae]

Everytime someone on ten-tenths is over enthusiastic about single seaters they are chastised for not seeing the broader picture. As I have said everyone who races anything with an engine has my respect. I just don't think many of them have thought it out.
Two very extreme examples are 2cvs and trucks, I can understand the former, initial costs are low and the camaradarie is high, but trucks!!
Apart from the one make championships which I believe are commercial ventures subsidised by the drivers, the only advantage racing saloons have, is that the initial cost of the vehicle is low.
In most respects all competition cars emulate single seaters, suspension, weight distribution, alternative gear ratios etc. Except it all has to be wrapped in 1/2 a ton of metal.
It must be cheaper to run a single seater than a saloon, transportation and maintenance are easier, bodywork costs are much less. Oh..and at no time do you have to lie underneath a single seater with oil dripping down your arm!
The pros and cons of safety are debateable, it must be reasuring to have all that metal about, the only snag is, your competitors all feel the same and from what I have seen this does not encourage safe racing.

[graeme]

Ah, but you can't pop down Tescos in a single seater...

[TimD]

The trouble is, Stephen, you're arguing a meritocracy when all around you are enthusiasts. By their very nature, racers are going to go with what the heart dictates over what their balance sheet says. Some people like to race trucks. It's as simple as that. Is it correct to go to - say - Steve Parrish and tell him that because he replaced his nimble, lightweight bike with a career in Mercedes 1635s he's just plain wrong? Unlikely, I'd think.

As an "armchair" racer, with dreams far beyond his abilities, I can only say that it has never, ever occured to me to race a single seater, especially a little one with a small engine. They just don't grab me as a spectator and I don't relish the thought of running one. It just doesn't appeal. I've seen some exciting single-seater races, I've seen some dull tin-top races, but it's more likely the other way around in my humble experience.

Given a budget to race a car, I'd run a Porsche 924, a Hillman Avenger Tiger, an Aston Martin DBS. With a very, very big budget, a Lister Jaguar or a Lola T70. Their one common denominator? I like the cars. A Reynard or a Van Diemen? Never in a million years. I just don't find them exciting. "Better" just doesn't enter into it.

[TimD]

Originally posted by StephenRae
Apart from the one make championships which I believe are commercial ventures subsidised by the drivers, the only advantage racing saloons have, is that the initial cost of the vehicle is low.

One other thing, sponsorship. I've watched a nicely prepared tin-top attract its own crowd. Be it a BMW CSL or a Mini Cooper, a saloon will attract people who can relate to it. Children want to pat the Mini, grown adults go weak at the knees at the big Beemer.

Now, bring your sponsor or potential sponsor to a race meeting and watch this happen spontaneously and see what happens. With the best will in the world, a row of outwardly similar Formula Hondas, Formula Renaults or FFords just does not do that. They may be the cat's whiskers to the people who own them, prepare them, race them and love them, but in thirty-plus years of spectating I've never seen them inspire the same reaction from the casual watcher.

[StephenRae]

Hello TimD.......I don't suggest that you, or any other enthusiasts are wrong, just that pound for pound single seaters are better value. I suppose it comes down to compromises, all single seaters are restricted in some way, usually for financial reasons, by the regulations, but they are all doing what they were originally intended to do.
Your list of favoured cars is interesting, without the input of a large slice of single seater technology none of them could complete ten racing laps without rooting there brakes and tyres.
I wonder if Steve Parrish, a superb racer, races trucks because thats all that was available.

[ss_collins]

Ah, but you can't pop down Tescos in a single seater...

bet you can.... and what fun it would be...

I compete in both open and closed wheel cars - I have to say I do prefer the open wheelers... something more, pure if you like...

[TimD]

Originally posted by StephenRae
I don't suggest that you, or any other enthusiasts are wrong, just that pound for pound single seaters are better value.

There's that value statement again! Nope, for me, note for ME they are not better value. If I want to be entertained by my motor racing, and I pay my £10 at the gate to spectate or (wishful thinking) my £10,000 to compete, and I don't find a flock of single-seaters interesting and find myself in the bar instead, then I've wasted my money.

Please don't get me wrong - your very first statement said that everyone who races anything with an engine has your respect. I second that. I have single-seat racing friends, I suspect I've seen you race yourself several times over the years. It's just that small open-wheelers are not what floats my boat personally. (Fifties F1 or seventies F5000 is quite another matter....)

My ideal afternoon is watching everything from a squadron of vintage Bentleys to a colourful pageant of fifties sports prototypes competing. I've plenty of friends for whom that is an utter turn-off. I accept that and don't try to convince them otherwise (not too hard, at least). But better than other types of car? Hardly. Just different.

[redshoes]

Originally posted by StephenRae
Apart from the one make championships which I believe are commercial ventures subsidised by the drivers, the only advantage racing saloons have, is that the initial cost of the vehicle is low.

I'm not convinced you are comparing like with like. Most one-make saloon series are nearer the top end of the spectrum. You could compare Renault Clios with a season in Star of the Midlands FF, at least not in cost terms.

It must be cheaper to run a single seater than a saloon, transportation and maintenance are easier, bodywork costs are much less

If you rip a wheel off a single seater, which is not an uncommon thing, you could be faced with a hefty bill for a replacement corner.

I'm sure there's no right or wrong answer here but have a look at the Xmas issue of MN where they had a roundup of the cheapest forms of motorsport. Not a single-seater in sight.

[StephenRae]

TimD...I've fallen into the trap of ignoring the spectacle and speaking from my admittedly biased point of view. The purpose of my starting the thread was to maybe persuade some out there who desperately want to race, as opposed to just being part of it, that there are fewer cheaper ways of doing it than single seaters.
I note that the quickest XJS around Oulton last summer was 5 seconds slower than a good FF1600 time. Can you imagine the time, effort and money that have gone into the Jag, compared to the FF. It's easier for the spectater, he doesn't have to drag 1.5 tons of car home afterwards.

[kickstart]

I must confess that I have only ever "raced" single seaters because you get much greater performance and sensation of speed for your money, but that is a purely personal thing. I have always had a hankering for Mini Miglia racing or whatever it is called nowadays, but limited finances have always dicatated carrying on with whatever single seater I happen to own at the time.
The one major advantage with a saloon racer is that noise permitting you can take it to track days and have some fun and give your mates who help you out throughout the season a drive/lift around the circuit.

[Chris Y]

Originally posted by StephenRae
It must be cheaper to run a single seater than a saloon, transportation and maintenance are easier, bodywork costs are much less.

I very much doubt that in an accident situation, a single seater would be cheaper to fix than a saloon. If you hit someone with the tyre of a single-seater, it's quite likely that the wheel will come off, followed by damage to the driveshaft (if it's a rear), upper and lower wishbone, steering arm (if front), and maybe the tub if you're really unlucky.

Now, if you're racing an expensive SS, these could be carbon-fibre materials - mega costly. Even if they're not carbon, and maybe steel, it's unlikely you'll be able to bend them straight and put them back on for the next race.

In a saloon, if you hit someone with a corner, it's more likely to bend the bodywork a bit, but that can be straightened out, fairly easily and cheaply.. You probably won't need to replace wishbones and steering arms. Because production saloons are (by necessity) built stronger than single-seaters, they're bound to break less in an accident, and so work out cheaper.

What I'm saying here is that saloons are built to withstand the knocks more, and there's less 'bits' exposed when you hit another car/tree/armco, etc.

Yes, I'll grant you that maintenance / working on a single seater is probably easier than, say, working in a Mini engine bay, but again, cheaper? Don't think so. You can't get spare parts off the shelf of a local dealer, or down the scrapyard for a Van Diemen - there weren't too many single-seaters in my local breakers yard last time I checked.

Mass-produced saloon components will always be cheaper than specialist race-car builder components - this is simple economics.

Transportation costs? Well ok, you could say that because a SS is lighter, then it's going to require less petrol to tow, than for example a V12 Jag. Also, single seater will require a smaller trailer, and perhaps a smaller towing vehicle. However, when you're comparing a SS to a Mini, then the comparison becomes more difficult. Some Minis weigh in just slightly heavier than a single-seater, and probably are about the same size, wheelbase wise.

As for why people choose to race saloons rather than single-seaters? Is like Tim says, some people just have more 'interest' in production saloons. They might have owned one previously and know their way around the car. They might just want to have more space in the cockpit.. They might have a spare one hanging around just begging to be converted into a race car. There are simply thousands of reasons why racing a saloon makes more sense to some people.

Also, I think it's easier for the 'loner' club racer to race saloons. If you don't have someone to help you do your belts, remove the battery after the car is started, etc., it can be really hard to race a single seater on your own.

Saloons are sometimes a bit more 'user friendly' if you just dip your toe into racing every now and again, or if you're not very good at the more 'technical' side of racing. There are some saloon racers I know of that don't know camber from castor from toe-in, and they certainly don't adjust that sort of thing. Or perhaps modifications are limited according to the series they're racing in.. Saloons are probably a little more 'forgiving' in the handling department if the setup is not quite perfect...

Anyway, there will always be saloons and single-seaters in racing. Each has a part to play. You can't say that saloons are better than single-seaters, or vice-versa - it's horses for courses. It can depend on your tastes, or your circumstances, or your finances, and you could change your mind at some point, after trying out one or the other. Also, I don't think that racing one type or the other makes you a 'better' driver, it's just different.

[Bob Pearson]

Damned tricky one to resolve, not the least because hardly anyone ever races both at sometime in their life. Economy of competition is often a product of how the driver approaches his racing. A guy who races single seaters cheaply, and I am one, could probably race a saloon cheaply once he has got the hang of it. Certainly to suggest that one is better than the other just isn't on, it's whatever grabs you. I am sure a spectator sees it differently to the driver, single seaters, at least to me are a pleasure because of the feedback and pecision required from them. The spectator simply cannot feel that.
In the town where we live there are four single seater drivers, two saloon drivers and a clubman car driver. I am not sure about them all, but one of the saloon drivers spends more than all the single seater drivers put together, and generally doesn't achieve the results of the quickest two singe seaters.
Does that tell us anything? probably not.

[Redracer77]

It is all down to what you prefer to drive.

I raced a rear wheel drive Ginetta Sportscar and a FF1600 this season and much prefer the single seater. That is just my point of view. I prefer racing in single seaters as I believe the driving standards are better. In the Ginetta the body work was like a passport to be hit. In the single seater there is a lot more respect on the track and less contact. This could be because if you do that in a FF1600 you will most likely roll. Saloon and Sports cars are like WWF compared to single seaters!!! (Not all are like that but most are)

[Maisie]

Originally posted by Redracer57
(Not all are like that but most are)

Precisely. I fail to see the point of generalising. You can't say "Single seaters are cheaper than saloons" because obviously a BOSS formula car is vastly more expensive than a Stock Hatch. You can't say "Single seaters are safer" - people have been injured and killed in both single seaters and saloons. You can't say "Driving standards are better" without evidence of number of incidents and endorsements across the whole range of series - I've seen bloody awful single seater races and perfectly cleanly-fought saloon races. You can't say "people prefer the look of saloon cars" - there are some that like a car they can identify "Look at the Mini, Daddy!", and others that seem to identify with the single seater shape more "Look, Daddy, a racing car!"

At the end of the day there is little or no point starting a thread where everyone has their own, equally valid (for them!) point of view, and where you will never get a consensus of opinion. Likewise, from whichever camp you come, there is no point constantly harping on about your own point of view or trying to make the whole world sing from the same hymn sheet - it's just not going to happen. That diversity is what makes things interesting, and if would be wrong to try to wipe it out.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Maisie
At the end of the day there is little or no point starting a thread where everyone has their own, equally valid (for them!) point of view, and where you will never get a consensus of opinion.

Thread like this are among the more interesting! Just because we may not agree with another person's opinion doesn't make that opinion any less valid; consensus isn't always possible, or even desirable! What a boring world it would be if we all agreed on everything!

Me, I don't care what it is, single seater, saloon, sports car, bike, sidecar, etc., etc., as long as the racing is close & clean.

[KA]

Originally posted by Redracer57
It is all down to what you prefer to drive.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there- it's very much a matter of personal preference both for drivers and spectators.

I don't race, but if I was in a position financially to think about doing so, then my first instinct would be to go the saloon or sportscar route (in fact, probably Minis...) because as a spectator for close to 20 years, even though I enjoy good single-seater racing, saloons and sportscars have always been what I've enjoyed most. For me it's probably because the first race meetings I ever went to were touring car and sportscar meetings, so I've been predominantly a fan of them ever since.

In fact, if as a teenager in the mid-80's I had been starting out as a young driver aspiring to be able to race professionally, then I suspect my personal aspirations might have tended more towards Le Mans than F1...

[simon drabble]

As a spectator I have to say that Truck racing on Sky sports is wonderfully entertaining! However I have little or no desire to race one! 2CV racing I am afraid does not grab me at any level!!
I have raced open sports prototypes and saloons but never ss. I accept that ss might be the pinnacle but its not for me, doesnt stop me watching them though as I think the sight of a grid of 60's ss or some of the more powerful Formula's is pretty gripping.
The problem with a saloon car is that you spend all of the development on trying to make it behave like a race car on the track rather than starting with something built for the job!
Maisie is right cost is not a relative argument as the are both as cheap/expensive as each other. A race car by defination is built more to the limit and therefore needs constant spannering whereas a saloon requires less spannering but more devolpment cost.
In conclusion I would say that having your helmut in the open has added a new dimension and out of choice I would continue with sports prototype both ancient and modern rather than tin tops.

[Chris Y]

Don't make me close this thread because some of you can't accept someone else's point of view as being as valid as your own.

This is an emotive subject, and naturally each 'side' (if you want to put it like that) is biased and thinks they are right, but please listen to the other point of view and don't make personal snipes at each other.

Yes, this subject has been done to death in the past, but it's an interesting thread going here, so please don't spoil it for everyone. The next abusive or flame-baiting comment will get it deleted.

[goforit500]

Quote :
In a saloon, if you hit someone with a corner, it's more likely to bend the bodywork a bit, but that can be straightened out, fairly easily and cheaply.. You probably won't need to replace wishbones and steering arms....

The bill for a corner on my saloon car :

Wing : £300
Upright : £500
Shock : £500
TCA : £300
Caliper & Disk : £600-700
Tyre : £200
Wheel : £200

Thats about the cost of a car for NWFF1600 isn't it ??!!

[Bob Pearson]

I must say 500, that is over 50% of our annual budget in BARC Renault.
I did notice the quote someone made earlier that you have picked up on and, although I am no Saloon expert, it did seema little "glossed over".

[Chris Y]

You're not quite comparing like-for-like there though - your saloon is a pretty 'high-end' saloon, with lots of expensive (and possibly light-weight?) components - possibly more brittle, and more expensive to repair than an 'average' saloon. In the same way that obviously a F3 car is going to be more expensive to repair than a Formula Vee.

Maybe at the more expensive end, saloons and single-seaters end up costing the same if you bend them? But I think, at the more grass-roots clubby end, saloons probably work out cheaper to repair after a ding.

[Bob Pearson]

Actually Chris I think we can do a good comparison here. I don't know 500 personally, but I think he races a Sierra Cosworth which is eligable for Formula Saloons which share top billing with BARC Renault. The cost of replacing a front corner on a BARC Renault Tatuus with new parts would be:

Top Wishbone £110
Bottom Wishbone £210
Pushrod £90
Two halves of wheel (middle nevr bends) £200
Complete front wing £500
Disc £40
tyre £100
Calipers and upright indestructable

That is a reasonbly good comparison ( assuming I'm right about the car 500 drives)

[simon drabble]

as a matter of interest how many times in a season would you expect to have to replace this? Do you think that open wheel racers are more respectful to each other?
There is another aspect which hasnt been discussed - endurance racing. this is growing in popularity (with good reason) and thus far is only for closed wheel cars. For me this is another good reason for looking at the compromise of sports prototypes!

[Bob Pearson]

We have lsot 6 corners spread over 2 cars over 4 seasons.
To be honest the destruction has never been so complete as I listed. I put those items down to form the best comparison with 500.
That equates to almost a corner per year.
( most of those are my son's I hasten to add)

[Lola]

I have lostthree corners in 6 years racing. They were all from one shunt in my first year.