GTS Class, Top Class Now??

[Garrett]

This goes in hand with the Astn Martin and Ferari 575GTC threads, but it seems like the class to race in now is the GTS class. It looks as if for 2004 to 2005 seasons and LM, we will have the Ferrari 575 GTC's, Corvette C5R's, Saleen S7R's, and the new Aston Martin DB9 gts cars. The only other car to be raced in gts to cmplete the class is some Porsche Carrera GT gts cars. Then it would be the top class. Why is this though? I thought with the new rules coming in for 2004-2005 seasons, the ACO made it to attract factory teams into LMP1 and LMP2 for Le Mans?

[Fab]

ACO tries to attract new factory teams to build prototypes, but it's a long way deal. They'll come, don't worry...

Waiting for that, the GTS/GT class is growing up, and we'll have some races for the same price. Don't forget the Lambos (even if there's still work to do). And the Porsches are not so bad, especially the last model ; the Viper is not dead yet, I hope to see them back, even if not for the lead...

[SALEEN S7R]

Personally I think that the GTS class could well morph into the top class. Not 2004 perhaps, although I do expect the 550s, 575's and Saleen S7R's to be a LOT closer to the LMP 900 cars, probably faster than some of them. In 2005 though when the factory Maserati's and Aston Martin's and works Lambourgini's have their act sorted out and the 900 cars (current cars) will be ballasted to 950kg that they had better start watching their backs.

[Fab]

Best GTS are already faster than some LMP900.

The question is : could they match the top ten of LMP1...

It's possible if :
- GTS are faster in curves
- LMP1 are much slower than they are now
- the fuel tank capacity becomes a real handicap for prototypes
and I'm still talking about LM, on 24 hours.

If those conditions are gathered, that will mean that ACO will encourage GTS and discourage the prototypes ; it's still not the case, but we've seen more surprising things in the past...

[SALEEN S7R]

Well I think the 20cm smaller wings the 900 cars will have to carry next year will have quite a effect on the lap times, sure the same GTS cars will be there with the exception of perhaps the 575 and Murceilago but I dont expect them to be competitve with Prodrive Ferrari 550s in 2004. GTS cars will have bigger wings, and a 20 litre bigger fuel tank. I think the lead LMP 900 times will be about 3 secs a lap slower next year over this year.

If ACO wants to make cars like the Maserati's as fast as the top LMP 900 cars one very simple way to do it. Give the cars 16 inch tyres, lower the minimum weight to 900kg and the same wings GTS cars have now, then I think ud see GTS being right there fighting for the lead. The new GTS machines such as the Maserati's will be doing 3:46's as the current regs are now anyway Id expect. Im guessing at GTS pole time for 2004 but Im thinking anywhere between a late 3:48 to a low 3:51. In 2005 with the NEW cars like the Maserati...

[MulsanneMike]

One simply thing everyone forgets...GTS weigh in at something like better than 2700 lbs. No way you can simply drop those cars to 1980 lbs. That is one of the biggest obstacles to making GTS a top class or closer to the top as it hinders acceleration and braking as well as conering, ie., all the basic performance perameters of a race car. If the ACO had the intention of moving the GTS up, we would be seeing a reduction in weight and an enlargement of restrictors as a basic indicator. On top of that, the LMP class would be gaining weight. 2004 would be the perfect time to implement this change as the rules for LMP are new and wouldn't require any cars to be modified and they could be designed from the start to this higher weight.

Having said that, next year could be interesting with the wing reductions in LMP900 et al. But looking at the restrictor chart shows that even with the smaller wings, they'll still have more power than they had this year (about 600 this year, 650 next year['02 level]).

[SALEEN S7R]

Mike, this also means though that GTS and GT cars will have 2002 restrictors, I thought I remembered hearing that the ACO was going to put all the restrictors back to 2002, across all classess that is, and for the record a top GTS car is pretty competitve against LMP 900 cars in terms of horsepower, sure not the top cars, but after the first 6 LMP 900 cars comes the lead GTS cars on top speed.

Mike, what is the kind of weight do u think GTS cars could be bought down to? If not 900kg then id say 1000kg at least, 1000kg would only be 100kg less than they are now...

[gttouring]

is the LMGTP classed as LMP1?
if LMGTP was seprate couldn't this take the throne and stay it from the GTS (the have it with bentley right now.)

[pink69]

From what I remember the prodrive 550's were alot after than some of the LMP 900's (including the Audi R8) Through the speed traps down the Mulsanne.

[rdjones]

Well in the 2003 Le Mans Annual they list the top speed at post 8, the Hunaudieres Restaurant, during the race, between 19.00 and 22.00. The top speed for the Bentley & Audi was 203 mph and Ferrari was 190mph. The fast car overall was the number 15 RfH Dome at 206mph.

[SALEEN S7R]

According to DSC the top times over the weekend were.

#88 GTS Prodrive Ferrari 550, 193mph
Goh Audi R8, 202mph
Champion Audi R8, 202mph
Audi UK R8, 197mph
#17 Courage, 199mph
#18 Courage, 197mph

Just a few times there, but goes to show that the top GTS cars are right there - faster than some of the LMP 900 cars, and faster than ALL of the LMP 675 class cars. By the way the fastest time overall this year wasnt 206mph, it was 207mph set by the #15 RFH Dome.

[Garrett]

What were the top speeds of the Bentley's at LM2003?

[SALEEN S7R]

#7 Bentley 199 202
#8 Bentley 203 203

[gi_gav]

I seem to remember the Audi lot complaining that the Bentley's had a big straight line speed advantage - apparently not according to those figures

[jhansen]

Why would the ACO reduce the wing size for the LMP1 cars? I don't really see what the point of that is. Do they release their reasoning for the changes that are made?

[Patrick B]

Only the wings on 2003 and older LMP1's are 180cm. All new LMP1's built to the 2004 specs have 200cm wings. Its the ACO's way of encouraging factorys to build new cars. It just happens to screw all the private teams that can't afford to buy new cars...

[gsmith2424]

Let me post something I have been thinking about this rule change. In therroy couldn't the teams just bump up the smaller wings and still get the same down force or a little less with out getting hurt much.

[paul-collins]

Also remember that prototypes are typically lower on front end downforce. So the rear wing is adjusted to balance this - it's never set up to provide anything like maximum downforce.

In theory, gsmith has it right - increase the angle of the wing to get the same downforce, with a (minor?) drag penalty.