|
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
13 Jul 2005, 22:16 (Ref:1355038) | #1 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,190
|
Incident handling for Bio-Ethanol cars?
Extract of an article on Crash.net
"History will be made in the Dunlop MSA British Touring Car Championship next [this] weekend at Croft when Fiona Leggate makes her entry into the series at the wheel of her Vauxhall Astra Coupe - which will be the first car in the championship to run on bio-ethanol fuel. "Bio-ethanol is a viable fuel for the future and people will see that when they watch my car in the BTCC," the 25-year-old farmers daughter said. "The championship is the perfect arena to demonstrate there is no difference in power between a car using bio-ethanol or petrol. The only difference will probably be the smell!" --- Anyone have any further info on this type of fuel in terms of incident handling before we head up to Croft at the weekend? Al. |
||
|
13 Jul 2005, 23:40 (Ref:1355087) | #2 | |||
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,837
|
Reply
Quote:
IRL & CART cars run on Methanol and a bucket of water the primary abatement for marshals. A tanker would probably be the Fire Tender. Othe exotic specific "Professional Use" materials are provided by IRL & CART's safety crews that follow the circuit. Another possibility is a mixture of Ethanol and a Diesel fuel derivative which as also been referred to as "Bio-Ethanol". Check with the NASMAX crew that ran Le Mans for more information. Last edited by thebear; 13 Jul 2005 at 23:41. Reason: spelling error |
|||
__________________
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced |
14 Jul 2005, 12:53 (Ref:1355378) | #3 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 785
|
We treat ethanol-petrol blend fires the same as we would a straight petrol fire in my area. Ethanol-diesel isn't a fuel we've used for racing here so I'm not sure how it would be handled.
BTW, they'll go on about how ethanol pollutes less than petrol, but it isn't true. It pollutes more. It just throws out different pollutants that don't get measured in the same way, but still end up in your lungs. You can find study results and news stories about the pollution on the Web. It would be nice to know the effects of what we breathe out there on the banks but I haven't found studies on ethanol in lungs yet. |
||
__________________
I'm not tailgating, I'm keeping up with the pace car. |
14 Jul 2005, 17:33 (Ref:1355580) | #4 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,968
|
It's also an irritant, so if you get it on you make sure you notify the medical crew so they can ensure it's properly washed.
|
||
__________________
...not with a bayonet through your neck you couldn’t. |
14 Jul 2005, 20:21 (Ref:1355695) | #5 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,578
|
Found this earlier:
Bio-ethanol fuels? Now don't laugh, but bio-ethanol is alcohol distilled from organic products such as, believe it or not, wheat or beet sugar. When blended with petrol at a rate of 10% and burned in conventional petrol engines, bioethanol produces less carbon dioxide greenhouse gas and local pollutants, provides four-to-five times more energy and is a renewable energy source. You simply grow more in fields. Full article is here http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/featur.../biofuel2.html From what I read Al, your best bet would be to chuck a bucket of water on it. How big a bucket of water would depend on the size of the blaze, obviously! Alternatively, foam should do the trick. If you are still concerned, try contacting Mike Farnworth who may be able to assist you. I'm sure he must be including fire fighting of odd substances in the syllabus at Myerscough College. |
||
__________________
You win some, lose some, wreck some - Dale Earnhardt |
14 Jul 2005, 22:11 (Ref:1355818) | #6 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,190
|
No concern here, I'll be waving a flag from a safe distance It's the F-BMWs that I'm concerned about after my last BTCC meeting (Donington P2).
Just something I noticed on the great world wide wotsit and thought it might be good to know about for briefing at the weekend. Thanks for the advice all, Al. |
||
|
14 Jul 2005, 22:43 (Ref:1355839) | #7 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 576
|
Can't forsee any problems. You can put it out with powder or foam, nothing special. As Sheila mentioned, water does the trick too, but you've got to be sure you've got enough of it.
|
||
__________________
"just checking the walls, dear." |
15 Jul 2005, 06:08 (Ref:1355963) | #8 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 169
|
Be warned though, ethanol burns very hot and with NO flame, just a heat haze.
|
||
__________________
Crouching marshal miss flying mini! |
15 Jul 2005, 09:02 (Ref:1356043) | #9 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,364
|
There a couple of things which need to be said.
For conventional hydrocarbon fuels (petrol, diesel) with between 5 and 20% of ethanol added, then there is absolutely no difference in the fire-fighting techniques and equipment or protection used by marshals. (In the UK that is a combination of dry powder and “Light Water/AFFF” foam.) Ethanol, like methanol, burns with a very cool flame compared to petrol. Otherwise those silly drinks where you swallow the burning spirit would not be possible. Ditto “fire eaters”. (For those who escaped science lessons, ethanol is what is generally referred to as the “alcohol” in drinks. It is not very toxic. Methanol or wood alcohol is chemically related and is quite poisonous when taken internally or breathed in or absorbed through the skin. After all, that is why Governments put methanol in “Methylated spirits” so that you will poison yourself if you try to drink meths and evade the Excise duty on the 80% normal ethanol which makes up meths. ) If you spill petrol with added ethanol on your skin, what needs treatment is the hydrocarbon element, not the ethanol. After all if you spill your malt whisky on your arm you just lick it off (or for the very fastidious, wipe it off). And we won’t go anywhere near what consenting adults do with brandy in private! Methanol is a bit different. It is much more toxic than ethanol and needs to be washed off with lots of water. Don’t use water on a fire which involves petrol or diesel if there are sufficient quantities involved to form pools of the fuel. They are both lighter than water and will float on top and spread. (The fire brigade can use very high pressure water sprays which cool the flames and put the fire out with less risk of floating the fuel.) Using water on a methanol fires work because, unlike hydrocarbons, alcohols mix with water and can be diluted to the point where they no longer burn. Remember that you are in no danger of your pint of beer (~5% alcohol by volume) catching fire. You have to warm the brandy for the Christmas pudding blaze because being only 40% abv, it will burn but not very easily. Regards Jim Last edited by JimW; 15 Jul 2005 at 09:03. Reason: Layout |
||
__________________
Life is not safe, just choose where you want to take the risks. |
15 Jul 2005, 11:55 (Ref:1356162) | #10 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 191
|
Does that mean we should, or should not, take long straws to sample?
Diesel tastes foul! I read something about bio-fuels (it may surprise a few that I can read) which appeared to questions lots of data that had been gathered. Some state it takes more energy to create than it gives off which questions how useful it may be. It seems that we are at early stages of developement at making and using the stuff. For the BTCC anything that puts a car on the track has to be good news. For the rest of us if it helps stave off the £1 a litre for LRP - bring it on. |
||
|
8 Aug 2005, 09:12 (Ref:1374757) | #11 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,364
|
A bit more about "Bio-ethanol"
Reading a trade magazine recently I came across some more information. This was a news item about a report published in Natural Resources Research by two US academics. They summarised "There is just no energy benefit to using biomass for liquid fuel. These strategies are not sustainable." They estimated that you used more energy producing the fuel than the fuel delivered.
Second point. The article referred to the "EU Biofuels directive (2003/30/EC)". It also referred to a fuel E85 in a way which suggested that this was defined in the Directive but this was not clearly spelt out. Reading EU directives is not a job for those who wish to retain their sanity so I have not followed up that reference. E85 is apparently 85% ethanol and 15% petrol. and Ford and Saab have production cars capable of using that fuel. For our fire-fighting purposes I guess that means continue as before but with an eye to treating it with the properties of methanol in mind. I don't know whether the 15% of "petrol" will mean it floats on water or not. Either way a combination of dry powder and AFF foam should do the job - no problems. Regards Jim |
||
__________________
Life is not safe, just choose where you want to take the risks. |
8 Aug 2005, 10:13 (Ref:1374813) | #12 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 860
|
And we won’t go anywhere near what consenting adults do with brandy in private! [/font]
Jame's is there something your not telling us. |
|
|
8 Aug 2005, 11:13 (Ref:1374852) | #13 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 143
|
Spoke with Nasamax crew at Le Mans in 2004 and, as already stated elsewhere within this thread, was told to use water and if not available "revert to standard fire-fighting procedures".
After sourcing a number of water and AFFF extinguishers for Post 100 they weren't needed as their car caught fire elsewhere! |
||
|
8 Aug 2005, 20:54 (Ref:1375292) | #14 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,578
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
You win some, lose some, wreck some - Dale Earnhardt |
19 Jan 2009, 13:08 (Ref:2374443) | #15 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,530
|
Now you guys have had a couple of years of experience over there with E85 has there been any changes in the theory of fighting E85 fires. It is being introduced into V8 Supercars here in Aus this year and there is a bit of misinformation or misunderstanding about its dangers or otherwise.
Any advice? |
||
|
19 Jan 2009, 13:14 (Ref:2374451) | #16 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 143
|
The Nasamax crew never came back to Le Mans and that was my once and only direct experience (in preparation only) for handling a bio-fuel fire so can't help I'm afraid.
|
||
|
19 Jan 2009, 13:32 (Ref:2374475) | #17 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,455
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other. |
19 Jan 2009, 13:45 (Ref:2374490) | #18 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,359
|
No different to petrol as far as I can see.
For the definitive answer do a web search for 'MSDS E85'. |
||
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
20 Jan 2009, 01:12 (Ref:2374946) | #19 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,012
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
20 Jan 2009, 13:01 (Ref:2375275) | #20 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,364
|
If anyone knew where we could get some local to Donington Park, we might have a play next weekend?
Jim |
||
__________________
Life is not safe, just choose where you want to take the risks. |
20 Jan 2009, 13:30 (Ref:2375317) | #21 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,359
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
21 Jan 2009, 14:46 (Ref:2376163) | #22 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,697
|
At the Formula Student event each year, we have quite a few of these sort of cars, haven't had any major problems. It's the couple of Hydrogen powered ones that spook me.
|
||
__________________
Comments made are personal and don't reflect any club or Motorsport UK policy. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein |
21 Jan 2009, 15:34 (Ref:2376177) | #23 | ||
Pancake Botherer
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 470
|
I wish I could put the picture up of you sat on the chair doing a good inpersonation of the garden gnome, you looked really spooked in that one....lol
|
||
|
28 Jan 2009, 22:40 (Ref:2381716) | #24 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,704
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Chase the horizon |
29 Jan 2009, 07:40 (Ref:2381890) | #25 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,012
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Metro handling | Kman1600 | National & Club Racing | 28 | 15 Feb 2005 10:51 |
handling gain | lotus | Racing Technology | 29 | 15 Feb 2005 04:42 |
worst handling car of 04 | jklein6419 | Formula One | 19 | 14 Nov 2004 21:41 |
running Chevrolet and Ford 6 litre V8s on bio-ethanol? | DanJR1 | Racing Technology | 1 | 23 Oct 2004 18:50 |
Ethanol | macdaddy | IRL Indycar Series | 22 | 23 Nov 2003 20:25 |