Less than 20 Cars ? - No championship in 2003

[Tony Harman]

Don't know how many people are aware of this but the MSA have said that any Championships that have an average grid of less than 20 cars during this season will not be allowed championship status for 2003. This could have dramatic effects on some club racing formulae. How many organising clubs are going to want to run non-championship races with small grids, at the end of the day they have to balance the books and pay for circuit hire and costs. The circuit owners are property managers who now find they can make more money from track days and the like, which is why they are getting cheaper, don't get me wrong I think track days are fine and encourage more people into racing. One thing that doesn't add up to me is if the circuits are being used more because of the increase in track days how come the hire costs for racing are still going throught he roof ? The MSA have no obligation to provide a mixed bag of motorsport entertainment to the public. So what if we can't call it a Championship, (or Challenge or Trophy), well we can call it a Series, but then supposedly we cant have a winner (i.e. Champion) at the end of the season. It is unlikely that you will get any commercial interest to sponser the "Series" so it gets more expensive to the competitors.
These are difficult times finacially for organising clubs and obviously we have to do something about it, but cutting away the grass roots of the sport - is that the right way to go about it.

[josvandeperre]

So its touch and go for Bernie then !

[Stephen Green]

Tony, one of the reasons for the escalating costs are the lack of people coming through the gates. Given the circuit take 100% of the gate money it has always surprised me that they don't do more to attract the spectators.

Having said that, as a marshal I get sick and tired of going to meetings where there are 7-12 car grids and lousy racing. The principle of trying to ensure 20 car grids is a good one in my opinion. If we get grid sizes up then hopefully we can attract more specators through the turnstiles?

I don't think there is one 'cure all' in these circumstances, but my suggestion would certainly make a start I think!

[NotLordPercy]

And the knock on effect will be fewer meetings but better subscribed meetings. Hopefully this will result in better crowds and in due course ease the problems of too many meetings chasing too few marshalls.

I wonder just how strict MSA will be however? How many championships are there where the average grid is that small??

Southern Fords? Name some more.........

[Stephen Green]

T Cars
F Ford Kents (some series)
The old saloon car cup
There are plenty more but off the top of my head I can't remember many of them. Rod Birley would be able to mention a few more as well.

[Craig]

Super Mighty Minis ?

What about new series such as the Focus cup thingy ? The new car was at Anglesey and looked mildly interesting but will it get 20 cars ?

Or how about the British Production Car Championship or whatever they decide to call the BTC-P when it splits off to once again form it's own championship next year ?

[apguy]

Name some more.........

Well sadly, 3 of the CTCRC races at Snetterton fell into that category.

I watched Classic Thunder and with only 12 entrants it was poor value for money. The pre90 was a joke with 9 entrants and the 1 hour race on Sunday only managed 16 entrants.

...and Snetterton circuit, Oi - sort it out. One viewing area at Russells is no good for spectators. I quite like Snetterton to drive on - but for viewing its pants.

It's sad to realise the new flyover and rejigged track entrance is nothing to do with Snetterton race circuit but Snetterton Sunday bdy market. If you've ever been there you will realise that more folks go to the market than to the circuit.

[Andrew Kitson]

Heard a whisper at the weekend that the viewing area at Russell may be terraced with concrete steps ( like Silverstone). Reason there are no grandstands anymore at Snett is due to insurance in this compensation society we now live in. Stands have to have stewards these days which would not be cost effective for Snett.
And yes, Octagon has had to contribute to the new entrance.

[Tony Harman]

Unfortunately all true above, especially your Sunday Market comment Andrew !
I think the list is going to be very long indeed, and what will be sad will be the demise of some of the older formulae such as lesser FF championships, some of the BARC Classic formulae, including Classic Clubmans. We're probably likely to loose more of the racing car formulae than saloon car formulae a I think as saloons generally seem to get better grids.
But - if these formulae loose their championship status they might still run at meetings, e.g. if we lost 3 formulae from the BARC Classic Package they wouldn't have enough races to put on the Classic events, would they ? - of course they'll attract other classic formulae perhaps at the expense of the HSCC... and so we go on.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Reason there are no grandstands anymore at Snett is due to insurance in this compensation society we now live in. Stands have to have stewards these days which would not be cost effective for Snett.

It makes me mad.

[Andrew Kitson]

Lets get back to two Formula Libre Championships then! One for single seaters, the other for closed wheel cars ( sports & saloons). That would make the lapping of backmarkers interesting with the speed differentials of different classes. It would keep you marshals busy too with the blue flags so no time to get bored with an 8 car race!

[Peter Mallett]

The one-hour wasn't a championship race so doesn't count.

However the Classic Thunder and the pre 90's are a good case in point. Can't identify the problem with Pre 90 but Classic Thunder is soooo expensive. Let's face it the only reason we got it was because of the ex BTCC support drivers. They've gone awaqy to an extent because they want to be more expensive again to cater for the likes of Rouse, Hall and others. So only those die hards like Norman Ricketts et al still come out to play. Then you have the cost of a group 2 or Group A Rover and you can see you need to be pretty well off to run in the championship.

Personally I hope we get more out there because I just love those big beasts but sadly I feel it's not going to happen. Give me 100K and I'll build a Group 2 Cologne replica. Perlease?????

[Rod Birley]

I thought it was an average of 15 to take into account the smaller circuits (Lydden max.21),but if it is 20 what about T-cars,BOSS,Intermarque,even the once plentiful TVR Tuscans are falling back in numbers.
I asked Dennis Carter how the BARC questionaire was going and he was pleasantly surprised by the response so keep sending them in. Evidently there are a lot of people who want to go racing but all sorts of things are putting them off....they need to know and then maybe something will happen.

[Dave Brand]

So.......what is better entertainment......a six-car Super Mighty Mini field finishing the race closer than they were on the grid, or a procession of a couple of dozen K Sports?

[Peter Mallett]

Rod,

Which questionnaire is that?

[Stephen Green]

Peter, BARC sent out a questionairre in there last Startline magazine. From memory it's on blue paper.

[Rob29]

T-cars apparently only allow 12 entries anyway-for 'safety reasons'
Club racing has been largely funded by the competitors entry fees for many years-At some I have been to the spectators entry charges would not cover the gateman's wages!

[Stephen Green]

That's down to a lack of promotion by the circuit owners and too many meetings I'm afraid.

[Tony Harman]

Originally posted by Rod Birley
I thought it was an average of 15 to take into account the smaller circuits (Lydden max.21),but if it is 20 what about T-cars,BOSS,Intermarque,even the once plentiful TVR Tuscans are falling back in numbers.

I also thought it was to be 15 cars, apparently that was last year, (hence F1300 dissapearing from 750M/C), Can't see T-Cars or BOSS being refused Championship titles somehow.

I asked Dennis Carter how the BARC questionaire was going and he was pleasantly surprised by the response so keep sending them in...

Glad you reminded me of that - must send it back.

[Tony Harman]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
So.......what is better entertainment......a six-car Super Mighty Mini field finishing the race closer than they were on the grid, or a procession of a couple of dozen K Sports?

Intersting comment Dave - do you think K Sports are boring ? - as I race a Classic Clubmans I've seen quite a lot of video of their races - didn't look too bad to me, if they're too procesional maybe the Clubmans Register could look at how they can make it more exiting. Point taken though, and under the MSA plans then Super Mighty's could go or be amalgamated with the not so Super Min's maybe.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Tony Harman
Intersting comment Dave - do you think K Sports are boring ? - as I race a Classic Clubmans I've seen quite a lot of video of their races - didn't look too bad to me, if they're too procesional maybe the Clubmans Register could look at how they can make it more exiting. Point taken though, and under the MSA plans then Super Mighty's could go or be amalgamated with the not so Super Min's maybe.

Boring was your word, not mine!

I was just talking from recent experience - the last couple of K Sport races I've seen at Oulton have effectively been over by lap three. Maybe Oulton doesn't suit them - I haven't seen them anywhere else.

In theory, I like K Sports - its just that, in practice, they haven't delivered in my experience the close racing they promise.

It's funny how what, on paper, should be an exciting race can turn out to be dull & boring - the opposite also applies. A good example of this was the recent TVR Tasmin race at Oulton. At Anglesey last year the Tasmins subjected us to two of the most boring races ever, so we didn't expect much of them at Oulton; we were wrong - it was a race which was never less than interesting, at times terrifying for those of us lucky enough to be marshalling at Old Hall! Same cars, same drivers........

[DSM]

I'm not surpised that the MSA is doing this. IMO it's totally misguided if it is in any way aimed at increasing grids in other Formulae. The escalating costs from both the MSA, the Drivers clubs and the ciruit owners, particularly Octagon, are gradually killing the sport at all grass roos levels. in my experience a season of, say, 10 rounds, 14 races, with 1 test day per round will cost over £5K in fees to the above. At the cheapest level this is a huge percentage of the annual budget.
When you consider that most tracks charge around £200 for a day's testing (Donington is worst as far as I know £390)during which you will at best get maybe 60/70 laps and race fees average £150 for about 1/2 an hour's track time, it's not surprising grida are falling.
Tony Harman says these are difficult times for organising clubs. That may be so but why? Their revenues must be significant. Where does the money go to? The tracks? Octagon's shareholders?
One thing is for sure- from both sides of the track UK motorsport is increasingly seen as poor value for money and until that problem is addressed for both sides the decline will continue and no amount of 'championship'status removal, contrived '3-tier' structures or 'new' formulae will halt it.

[Tony Harman]

Quite right DSM - it is getting to be poor value for money. I used to race with Classic FF, they have now lost quite a few of their regular drivers to the Classic European series basically because it is cheaper racing, however they have the additional costs of getting to mainland Europe. A number of them keep their cars there so the commuting cost is relatively low. One guy I have spoken to says he is spending less than racing in the UK and gets more track time, (usually extra free practice).
My comment on difficult times for organiosing clubs is the increases they seem to be constantly facing from circuits, insurers, safety requirements, MSA etc.
Totally different arena I know, but how come the oval tracks always seem to fill their seats with specatators ?

[DSM]

It's just something that I increasingly puzzle over. if you look at the numbers who do compete, at all the tracks,in all the classes, plus the spectator base, there HAS to be a lot of cash going into the sport. Where does it all go?
my information is that you're spot on about comparative costs in other European Countries, though it's not something I know much about. How do they do it?
Do you mean the short ovals? I would think that has something to do with convenience - the tracks are usually closer to the populace, and 'action to hour' ratio! you can see maybe 8 or so action packed races (you can't get a strung out race on a 1/4ml oval) in 3 hours. Last year at Oulton, for no apparent reason, the average was about 1 race every hour. (we qualified at 11.15am and raced in the gloom at 6.00pm!) Value for money??

[Rod Birley]

Well said DSM I have taken up a lot of space saying the same with some mixed reactions,but it now seems as though more people are asking the same questions. Believe me I have spoken to a lot of club officials and everyone points the finger at someone else. When drivers do object to prices by not entering, the race/series is cancelled, but the problem is not addressed. We all know people who are not racing at the moment and the list is getting longer.