Brabham BT18

[Steve Wilkinson]

I have a specific double headed query!

a) What is the chassis number of the Brabham BT18 which went through the following hands: 1966 Clive Baker, 1967 Bryan Eccles, 1968 Chris Cox, 1970 Richard Thwaites?

b) Was this the car that went on to be sprinted and hillclimbed by Dave Hartley in 1971?

Should be an easy one for the Brabham Nutz out there!

[David McKinney]

Don't know if I would describe myself as a Brabham nut, but
(a) F2-44-66
(b) I believe so. Later Jimmy Johnstone and Peter Speakman

[Steve Wilkinson]

David, thanks for the info. It never ceases to amaze me the depths of information so readily available on Tenths. It is making my task of getting the BMSA database correct so much easier!

Thanks again to David and the rest of you who have contributed.

[Steve Wilkinson]

4 November 1971 issue of Autosport

Page 33 and in the report on the opening round of the Silverstone Sprint Championship there is a picture of the car plus in the body of the report a reference to it being the 'ex-Eccles, Thwaites Brabham BT18'.

Thanks again David for the chassis number. This one is now put to bed!

[Steve Wilkinson]

From 1971 until 1974 Tom Elton drove a 1.1 Brabham-Ford BDA BT18 in sprints and hillclimbs. His son Spencer also drove a BT18 (1.6 Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT18) on a couple of occasions in 1972. Can anyone help with the chassis numbers of these cars?

[David McKinney]

I believe the Tom Elton BT18 was F2-8-66 (originally Mike Hawley's). Owned in the 1990s by Roger Swanton.
Spencer seems to have had several, including the above car and the ex-Peter Lawson twincam (c/no unknown to me)

[allenbrown]

Steve

Spencer was a dealer (still is) and had many cars. A new one most years. Ask him next time you're at an Autojumble.

Allen

[Steve Wilkinson]

Allen, I went to Stoneleigh where I half expected Spencer to have a stall and never saw him! I have emailed him with enquiries but no response! I'll probably see him later in the year at Shelsley Walsh where he often has a stall selling books aand Memorabillia.

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Allen, I went to Stoneleigh where I half expected Spencer to have a stall and never saw him! I have emailed him with enquiries but no response! I'll probably see him later in the year at Shelsley Walsh where he often has a stall selling books aand Memorabillia.

Steve, there was definitely a stall with 'Spencer Elton' signs behind it. Whether he was on it I don't know, afraid I wouldn't recognise him anyway !

[David McKinney]

Yes, he was there
More or less opposite the Ferret stand

[allenbrown]

Look for the silver-haired gentleman usually deep in conversation with someone about eight feet from his stand. You should detect a mild west country accent. If you're not sure, ask him how's business. If he responds as if the world is just about to end, that's Spencer.

Allen

[Ted Walker]

I think that Spencers 18 was F2-21-66. Ex Peter Deal car,David Way, and now in Australia/ Spencer was a very underated talent . many a time he would arrive at a circuit late (after a serious **** up the night before) miss practice, start from the back row and win.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Once again the ferret comes up with the goods!

[EliSolomon]

Can anyone help me trace the origins of BT18 AM128? The car was raced at Watkins Glen Vintage GP in 90 & 91 - either F3 or Formula C spec, and then in Colorado up to middle of 2004. There the standard Arch Motors stamp on the rear chassis but no plate on the dash.

Thanks

Eli Solomon
www.currypotproductions.com

[Ted Walker]

All I have are 2 names in the USA. one being Duane Capps and the other Tom Ragnotti.

[Bryan Miller]

The 2nd of the two names listed by Ted is who I have associated with that AM no.
Suggest you contact John Hafkenshiel in the U.S.A. at brabworld@aol.com who may be able to assist .
Bryan Miller.

[EliSolomon]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

The 2nd of the two names listed by Ted is who I have associated with that AM no.
Suggest you contact John Hafkenshiel in the U.S.A. at brabworld@aol.com who may be able to assist .
Bryan Miller.

Thanks for the leads guys. I'm waiting for John Hafkenschiel to revert with more information.

Bryan, do you know where can I find the link with Tom Ragnotti (or Duane Capps)? All the BT18 racing records are available for 1966, minus AM numbers of course. It's like a puzzle - a name here, a name there, and all I can do is try to follow up one lead after another, and hopefully something gives so I can close the circle and get on with another Historic sports racer that some guy called Ford Smith built in 1971.

Eli

[EliSolomon]

I'm afraid I'me being a persistent pain in the *utt but I do want to get to the bottom the BT18 AM128.

What I now have is that it was raced in F3 in Europe and brought to Hawaii at some point. It then ended up with Ron Hunder in Denver (who raced it in the SCCA Formula C series somewhere in the US) then Duane Capps via a gift from his wife (I'm showing this to mine with an explicit request for a BT29 or 30 next time around!). Attorney Tom Ragonetti then bought it (I think in 1983 or thereabouts). There was never any indication that it had an ID plate.

I don't know where to start with the SCCA Formual C results from 1967 onwards. Anyone with suggestions here? Or perhaps I ought to try the Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing guys and see they can stick an APB out for Ron Hunter.

[allenbrown]

Hi Eli

Formula C is very hard to track over this period as the SCCA races were usually held for Formula A, B and C together (what they call Formula SCCA) and the FC cars typically don't feature in the top 10. So you just get a mention of the FC class winner and that's about it.

I have the results for the pro series in 1967 and 1968 on my site but there were few FCs and I have nothing relating to Hunder, Capps or Ragonetti.

Have you tried asking the local SCCA Region?

Allen

[EliSolomon]

Thanks Allen. Typo in the first name - should be Ron Hunter of Denver. I'm far more interested in tracing the European F3 history of the car before it was converted to the Formula C spec with 1,110cc capacity limit in the US. The 1966 F3 records I've seen don't include chassis numbers. You think the regular publications like Autosport etc would have?
Eli

[Bryan Miller]

Eli,

As per my PM , nobody in period was going around looking at the back of F3 frames checking out AM numbers and matching them up with Chassis numbers .

More to the point hardly anyone was recording chassis numbers let alone AM numbers on F3 cars, how do you know it is an F3 , why can it not be an F2 , 1000cc SCA.

Who imported the car into Hawaii , who/ where did they obtain car from , if we had a U.K./ European name we may be able to do some good.

Bryan.

[Chris Townsend]

OK Here's some guidance which might at least give us some names and eliminate a few runners [I also need to know about BT18s in the US as they are quite common in the early years of FB] Note that all cars are called F2 even when ran F3

BT18 F2.1.66 1966: Works: Chris Irwin 1967: Bob King 1968: Bob King (A.S ad end of year, raced FL Silverstone, March; 'works F3' ) f/s AS Bedford, not raced since August 1968
BT18 F2.2.66 - 1966: Works: 1967 - 68 Peter Parnell [ZA]
F2.3.66 Not known
F2.4.66 Not known

BT18 F2.5.66 1966 Andrew Fletcher 1967: Andrew Fletcher [ran F. Libre 1966 AS 3.4.67] 1968 Andrew Fletcher

BT18 [F2.6.66] MAE 1966: Chris Williams 1967: Lydden Racing Team: John Tomlinson->J.A.Pearce Engineering [Aug 67. AS]
BT18 [F2.7.66] SCA 1966: Kurt Ahrens 1967: Ronnie Peterson 1968: Gustaf Dieden [MN 29.8.68 p 15]

BT18 [F2.8.66] 1966: Mike Hawley (h/c) [AS F/S with chassis no.] 1967: Mike Hawley (h/c) 1968: John Fenwick (h/c) 1969: John Fenwick [FS AS 28.3.69 p. 48] 1970: Tom Elton

BT18 F2.9.66 MAE 1966: Stockbridge: John Fenning
BT18 F2.10.66 Not known
BT18 [F2.11.66] MAE 1966: Robin Widdows [f.s AS 29.11.67 p.557] 1967: Tony Goodwin [maybe taken to Singapore]
BT18 F2.12.66 not known
BT18 [F2.13.66] MAE 1966: Mike Keens 1967: Dave Williamson [f/s AS 15.9.67] 1969: Dave Santer [t/c engine] [ex Stiller/Williamson/McInerney AS 12.9.69] 1970: Dave Santer [t/c engine FL Brands Jan] [ex Williamson MN 26.3.70 p.8]
BT18 F2.14.66 not known
BT18 F2.15.66 MAE 1966: Baldyne: Dennis O'Sullivan; 1967: Goodwin: Patrick Champin->Matti Lamminen 1969: Gerhard Krammer [H/C; Munich F2] [MN 30.10.69 p. 9]
BT18 F2.16.66 not known
BT18 F2.17.66 MAE 1966: Promecon: Sullivan f/s AS 13.1.67 1968: Gerard Pillon (h/c) [MN report St. Ursanne H/C]
BT18 [F2.18.66] Honda S800 1966: Works: Jack Brabham 1969: Kevin Murphy: Frank Keane 1970: Patsy McGarrity->Patsy Farrelly (IRL) 1971: Vivian Candy
BT18 F2.19.66 Honda S800 1966: Works: Denis Hulme
BT21 F2.20.66 Honda S800 1966: Works: Jack Brabham 1967: John Kendall [Frank Manning Racing]
BT18 F2.21.66 1966: Works: Chris Irwin 1967: Peter Deal For sale by Spencer Elton [ex Deal/David Wray]
BT18 F2.22.66 1966: Winkelmann: Jochen Rindt/Mike Beckwith/Hans Herrmann 1972: Paul Brindley [FL]
BT18 F2.23.66 1966: Winkelmann: Alan Rees
BT18 F2.24.66 not known
BT18 F2.25.66 not known
BT18 F2.26.66 1966 ?Palmer? 1967: Tony Palmer 1973: USA SCCA
BT18 F2.27.66 1966: Baird: Chris Meek 1967: Baird: Chris Meek
BT18 [F2.28.66] MAE 1966: Picko Troberg Reine Wisell
F2.29.66 not known
F2.30.66 not known
F2.31.66 not known
F2.32.66 not known

BT18 F2.33.66 1966: Walter Habbeger 1967: Bruno Frey 1968: Paul Blum
BT18 F2.34.66 1966: Frank Williams 1967: Leo Kinnunen
BT18 F2.35.66 1966: Frank Williams
BT18 F2.36.66 not known
BT18 F2.37.66 1966: Frank Williams 1967: Frank Williams [f/s AS 11 races built June 66] [Sold Sept 67] 1968: Bob Marsland (FL)

F2.38.66 not known
F2.39.66 not known
BT18 F2.40.66 1967: Lamplough: Jean-Pierre Jabouille (7 races) Robert Lamplough [f/s AS 29.11.68 built late 66 hardly used] f/s Lamplough AS Jan 1969 'Used by a young Frenchman for seven races in 1967 F3, who was then given a Matra and only used the car once more'

BT18 F2.41.66 1966-67: Frank Williams [f/s AS 9 races, built July 66]
F2.42.66 1968: Peter Korda (CH H/C) [MN report St. Ursanne H/C]
F2.43.66 not known
F2.44.66 1968: Clive Baker Brian Eccles (h.c) Chris Cox (h.c) 1969: Tony Charnell Richard Thwaites [HC] [ from Dave McKinney except Charnell 1969 from AS]


Any help?
Chris

[EliSolomon]

Thanks for that exhaustive list. Pardon my ignorance - could you explain the nomenclature in your note please? How did Ron designate a chassis/frame number? F2.xx.66 - 66 representing year but how did the xx relate to Arch Motors numbers? I looked at it this way - 198 cars built before the BT18 came about. Of that total, potentially 35 cars were made in 1966, leaving 163 (maximum) before the BT18 run began. Now I don't have a dash plate to identify the car but the AM chassis number of 128 is clearly marked on the rear chassis member. I've recorded 6 F2, 32 F3 and 8 Ford Kent variants for a total of 46 BT18s made. Somewhere in that is the hand granade I own.
Eli

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

OK Here's some guidance which might at least give us some names and eliminate a few runners [I also need to know about BT18s in the US as they are quite common in the early years of FB] Note that all cars are called F2 even when ran F3

BT18 [F2.8.66] 1966: Mike Hawley (h/c) [AS F/S with chassis no.] 1967: Mike Hawley (h/c) 1968: John Fenwick (h/c) 1969: John Fenwick [FS AS 28.3.69 p. 48] 1970: Tom Elton

BT18 F2.21.66 1966: Works: Chris Irwin 1967: Peter Deal For sale by Spencer Elton [ex Deal/David Wray]

BT18 F2.44.66 1968: Clive Baker Brian Eccles (h.c) Chris Cox (h.c) 1969: Tony Charnell Richard Thwaites [HC] [ from Dave McKinney except Charnell 1969 from AS]


Any help?
Chris

Further to the above selected chassis:

F2-8-66 was used by Tom Elton through to the end of 1974

F2-21-66 was sprinted and hillclimbed by Spencer Elton whilst he had it up for sale.

F2-44-66 this went to David Hartley when sold by Richard Thwaites at the end of 1970. Hartley sprinted it until the end of 1975. During 1974 & '75 Tony Bradwell shared the car.


FINALLY

In 1976 one John Hart competed in the Weston Speed Trials in a '1.6 Brabham-Ford BDA BT18'. Does anyone know which BT18 this was?

[Dan Rear]

Didn't John Hart have a BT38 around that time, maybe a 'typo' ?