F1, Europe and Asia

[Louis Agilais]

Over the last few years (actually the last decade or more) we've been presented with a trend in F1 that is growing more and more every year: everytime a new GP is born on the East, we lose an European Race: Austria, Magny-Cours, Imola, Nurburgring, Estoril.

Yes, the Asian market is huge and F1 wants it. But, is it working? 70% of the drivers are still europeans as are more than 80% of the teams. And I imagine that the "paddockees" are on the same proportion. And if we discount the historic F1 non-european countries such as Brazil, Australia, Japan there isn't much left. On the other hand, one can argue that is like this, that we can always count with Brazilian and Japanese drivers to be with us precisely because of theirs GP's being on the calendar for some time.

So, what do you think? Is it worth to give away like this the historic heart of the sport? Or maybe, like someone already said, we should tighten the calendar and try to keep them both (bring back some of the historic European GP's we've lost over the years and keep going to new Asian markets)?

[Mr V]

Doesn't matter what we think. If the Asians etc are prepared to pay Bernie the money he demands, they will get their race, even if the grandstands are empty.

[RF_Racer]

Bernie is using those countries as cash cows.. they seem to have more money than sense... You would get many european countries paying silly money to stage a race.

[MagnetON]

F1 has a global TV audience, countries and cities are using this to showcase themselves. This in turn brings inward investment, especially as the country is shown to be a "global player" and if they can provide the infrastructure to host F1 then they have the infrastructure to support your business in an emerging market.

Compared to other initiatives to promote a country/region/city to such a large audience of potential investors the cost of an F1 race becomes economically viable.

[Louis Agilais]

yeah, I do understand the reasons of both sides, Bernie's and the countries'. But where I'm trying to get is from the point of view of the sport. Is it worth it? Are we tied to a very rich man wishes to get even more rich? can't he be reasoned with?

and, sometimes, isn't it worse for a countrie's prestige to show himself to the world with empty grandstands? At least psychologically, it's much more thrilling to watch (even on TV) a sport event with full grandstands.

I remember USA, France, even Portugal without those issues we see in Bahrein, China..

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

But where I'm trying to get is from the point of view of the sport. Is it worth it?

It's a sport where there's very little audience interaction with the "players", and to be honest, motorsport is much easier to follow on TV, with the exception of oval racing you're only going to see a fraction of the action if you're at a circuit.

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

Are we tied to a very rich man wishes to get even more rich? can't he be reasoned with?

Bernie has taken a sport that was a minority interest with little or no live TV coverage and turned it into a global mega-sport, I'm sure he CAN be reasoned with but only if it fits in with his vision of the sport.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

It's a sport where there's very little audience interaction with the "players", and to be honest, motorsport is much easier to follow on TV, with the exception of oval racing you're only going to see a fraction of the action if you're at a circuit.


Bernie has taken a sport that was a minority interest with little or no live TV coverage and turned it into a global mega-sport, I'm sure he CAN be reasoned with but only if it fits in with his vision of the sport.

Exactly.

[Knowlesy]

Businessman in looking to make money constantly shock.

It is to our detriment, but who cares about the punters eh?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

Are we tied to a very rich man wishes to get even more rich? can't he be reasoned with?

[JeremySmith]

There is a tendency to give Bernie too much credit and treat all others involved in the decision making process like they are complete idiots..

Great post by the way MagnetON....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Doesn't matter what we think. If the Asians etc are prepared to pay Bernie the money he demands, they will get their race, even if the grandstands are empty.

That pretty much sums it up.

[wolfhound]

There is an interesting article on this subject on Autosport.com.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...rom-mcdonalds/

I know not everybody has access but it questions the sustainability of most of the new venues that have joined F1 in the last decade. The only ones that have any hope are Malyasia and Singapore, the rest with crowds of less than 40,000 and lots of empty seats.
Once Bernie gets his money he's happy but his TV production crews (FOC) try to ensure that we do not see empty grandstands. You will notice TV shots from helicopters are not used where there are poor crowds. The article also mentions that Korea lost £50 million+, those sorts of losses cannot be sustained. If one allows Bernie's fee of £30 million then there would appear to be very few paying into the event.
It cannot be good for F1 to have events with a crowd smaller than a local club football match.

It will be interesting to see how the Indian GP and next years Us GP get on.

[bjohnsonsmith]

When chosing one of these venues, that's outside the usual sphere of F1, like Turkey or S. Korea, is national interest in motorsport ever considered? Personally I don't think it is. Bernie waves the carrot and those countries grab it, eager to join the exclusive F1 club, without looking at the consequences.

[chillibowl]

what consequences are you talking about?

is the S.Korean economy going to fail because their government is funding F1?

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

what consequences are you talking about?

is the S.Korean economy going to fail because their government is funding F1?

Unlikely but if somebody is prepared to give Bernie such large amounts of money for an unsustainable event then it sets his price higher for those that should be sustainable, withness the problems GP's in Germany, Belgium & Canada have had in recent times.

We now have 4 or 5 Asian based GP's that are not attracting paying punters and that is about the only way that is left for the local promoter to make money from a GP.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

what consequences are you talking about?

is the S.Korean economy going to fail because their government is funding F1?

No, poor crowd attendance and the venue losing money.

[chillibowl]

incidentally there is an 800 post long thread here where the primary opinion involves no one wanting to pay to watch F1 on TV. there is no money in Europe to satisfy the teams need for 200 million dollar budgets and no buyers for all the products being promoted by sponsors.

obviously i dont think more races in Europe is the answer because without the money from the Middle east and the Asian car markets there is no F1.

whether we like it or not their money is keeping races like Spa alive, which has attendance problems of its own despite tradition.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

No, poor crowd attendance and the venue losing money.

but as MagnetON so nicely pointed out we still get to watch it on TV so does their attendance matter.

if the track is pants then good riddance but we need their money.

i need their money because i love watching F1.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but as MagnetON so nicely pointed out we still get to watch it on TV so does their attendance matter.

if the track is pants then good riddance but we need their money.

i need their money because i love watching F1.

Of course attendance matters, the venue can't simply rely on government subsidies; if the venue goes under no more GP, no more money.

[chillibowl]

but as you guys are so keen on pointing out he will find another irresponsible gov't to pony up the dough.

again i will take 10 S.Koreas if it means 1 race at Spa.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but as you guys are so keen on pointing out he will find another irresponsible gov't to pony up the dough.

again i will take 10 S.Koreas if it means 1 race at Spa.

That's exactly what he's doing and it's not sustainable in the long run. That's why Bernie initially does deals for a minimum number of years with a lot of these tracks, as it guarantees his money and then he extends the deal if the venue is sustainable.

[wolfhound]

If the money that Bernie gets from the races and TV all went back to the sport it would be one thing but it does not, I am not sure of what proportion but it was about 50% that went to CVC who put nothing back into the sport.

The crowd does matter as it all adds to the atmosphere of an event.
A major event without a crowd lacks atmosphere, ever been to an empty sports stadium for a major event?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

If the money that Bernie gets from the races and TV all went back to the sport it would be one thing but it does not, I am not sure of what proportion but it was about 50% that went to CVC who put nothing back into the sport.

The crowd does matter as it all adds to the atmosphere of an event.
A major event without a crowd lacks atmosphere, ever been to an empty sports stadium for a major event?

Just look at IndyCar, banks of empty stands. It must be very demoralising for the drivers.

[chillibowl]

CVC apparently takes a huge chunk and investment banks are the enemy these days.

billionaire owners of F1 teams though could use the money!

times are tough all around!

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

CVC apparently takes a huge chunk and investment banks are the enemy these days.

billionaire owners of F1 teams though could use the money!

times are tough all around!

At least the billionaire owners are putting something into the sport, CVC do not. At least Bernie originally put the effort in to build up the sport.

All the money being sucked out of the sport makes it very expensive for the average punter to go to a GP and makes it much more difficult for race promoters to make money.