Historic Racers In Europe - Carnet Requirements?

[andy97]

Not something that tends to affect me as I have only raced at Spa once, although I was hoping to do so again at some point in the future. Does seem to state more expense and paper work for those wanting to race in Europe:

https://www.motorsportuk.org/movemen...csSm04FaK_baag

[Bob Pomeroy]

Will a carnet really be needed if the race car in the trailer is actually road registered, taxed and insured?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Bob Pomeroy

Will a carnet really be needed if the race car in the trailer is actually road registered, taxed and insured?

There is a lot of chat about this on various race/ rally related forums and fb sites in the last few hours and the consensus of opinion so far seems to be, yes. Although CSCC have suggested that they are trying to work on a compromise with their Belgian colleagues for cars with a V5, but no guarantees. Seems to me, however, that “compromises” will need to be worked out at MUK-Govt level rather than individual car club level.

[eamonn ledwidge]

Originally Posted by andy97

There is a lot of chat about this on various race/ rally related forums and fb sites in the last few hours and the consensus of opinion so far seems to be, yes. Although CSCC have suggested that they are trying to work on a compromise with their Belgian colleagues for cars with a V5, but no guarantees. Seems to me, however, that “compromises” will need to be worked out at MUK-Govt level rather than individual car club level.

Very difficult to see how that could work. If racing at Spa, the points of entry to EU will be in France at Calais or Dunkirk.

I understand that trailers may need ID documents and insurance also.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

Very difficult to see how that could work. If racing at Spa, the points of entry to EU will be in France at Calais or Dunkirk.

I understand that trailers may need ID documents and insurance also.

Agreed.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Bob Pomeroy

Will a carnet really be needed if the race car in the trailer is actually road registered, taxed and insured?

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nd-cpd-carnets
This one seems to say that carnets will not be needed for registered cars through most of Europe .

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...nd-cpd-carnets
This one seems to say that carnets will not be needed for registered cars through most of Europe .

What if they are on a trailer? Many race cars are no longer registered.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by andy97

What if they are on a trailer? Many race cars are no longer registered.

If a car has ever been registered , that means that tax has been paid on it at some time , therefore it does not class as goods for customs purposes .
That was how it was explained to me many years ago by C&E when I was doing events over Europe using Carnets .
AS far as I can make out , that still applies & even if it is on a trailer , does not need a Carnet .
And the Trailer does not need to be registered if it is private use .

[eamonn ledwidge]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

If a car has ever been registered , that means that tax has been paid on it at some time , therefore it does not class as goods for customs purposes .
That was how it was explained to me many years ago by C&E when I was doing events over Europe using Carnets .
AS far as I can make out , that still applies & even if it is on a trailer , does not need a Carnet .
And the Trailer does not need to be registered if it is private use .

Interesting, my main race car is Republic of Ireland road registered with duties paid, but UK located. That might solve part of the problem, however I discovered this little gem:

"The Port of Dover and Eurotunnel cannot process ATA Carnets, so find out where to go when moving goods with an ATA Carnet". ATA Carnets will usually be processed at the port. However, from 1 January 2021, if you’re moving goods with an ATA Carnet through the Port of Dover or Eurotunnel, you will need to go to a government inland border facility to process your ATA Carnet. from gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/guidance/moving-g...-an-ata-carnet

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

Interesting, my main race car is Republic of Ireland road registered with duties paid, but UK located. That might solve part of the problem, however I discovered this little gem:

"The Port of Dover and Eurotunnel cannot process ATA Carnets, so find out where to go when moving goods with an ATA Carnet". ATA Carnets will usually be processed at the port. However, from 1 January 2021, if you’re moving goods with an ATA Carnet through the Port of Dover or Eurotunnel, you will need to go to a government inland border facility to process your ATA Carnet. from gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/guidance/moving-g...-an-ata-carnet

As I understand it , an ATA carnet will still be needed for any spares etc carried . But the car will only need a CPD carnet for certain countries , mostly outside Europe .
So it looks like you might have to have an ATA & get it signed out at Ashford , [ or one of the other places shown on your link] .

[Alfaholic]

The view of someone who has seen & stamped many a carnet over the years.

I'm sure we've been over this before, but in general the CPD carnet is intended for use by people travelling with their own personal (road) vehicle for pleasure. The ATA carnet is for goods being used for exhibition, show, testing, etc.

As such, any race car either on a trailer or being driven to be used at a race meeting would be considered as being shown or exhibited and should be covered by an ATA carnet.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

The view of someone who has seen & stamped many a carnet over the years.

I'm sure we've been over this before, but in general the CPD carnet is intended for use by people travelling with their own personal (road) vehicle for pleasure. The ATA carnet is for goods being used for exhibition, show, testing, etc.

As such, any race car either on a trailer or being driven to be used at a race meeting would be considered as being shown or exhibited and should be covered by an ATA carnet.

Yep - back in the day, we used to list our tractor units and race transporter trailers on an ATA carnet as well, covered off some different views at different borders so a safer bet all round.

[midgetman]

This is starting to sound like a right nightmare. I've an allergy to paperwork, is it as onerous as it sounds? Plus the nominal fee sounds somewhat more than nominal.

I've also been reading the reports about a trucker's picnic being confiscated at the Dutch border How would I manage without my tinnies of old and filthy, I couldn't possibly drink Eurofizz stuff.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[eamonn ledwidge]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

As I understand it , an ATA carnet will still be needed for any spares etc carried . But the car will only need a CPD carnet for certain countries , mostly outside Europe .
So it looks like you might have to have an ATA & get it signed out at Ashford , [ or one of the other places shown on your link] .

Many thanks for your most helpful input on this.

Seems I'll be reviving old skills from my first job in shipping in 1960's and looking for a change of ASN. Small price to pay for 'taking back control'.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by midgetman

This is starting to sound like a right nightmare. I've an allergy to paperwork, is it as onerous as it sounds? Plus the nominal fee sounds somewhat more than nominal.

Right, I understand your point of view. Seems that should you cross the border its either you declare to be a tourist travelling for leasure only or a pro, the last involving a carnet. Hope this will be amended for Motorsport at least.
But prepare yourself to an increase in costs and time spent.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Right, I understand your point of view. Seems that should you cross the border its either you declare to be a tourist travelling for leasure only or a pro, the last involving a carnet. Hope this will be amended for Motorsport at least.
But prepare yourself to an increase in costs and time spent.

Yup, as Eamon says, a small price to pay. Although as I read it the carnet lasts for 12 months so the costs can be amortised over more than one trip.

[Peter Mallett]

I agree, although the carnet thing, not unexpected, does appear to be excessively costly. I wonder if organisers such as PA, Roadbook etc. Might lobby the Customs to reduce costs for amateurs. Just think of the impact on the 6hrs.

[MGDavid]

One bit of the latest MSUK announcement caught my eye. The carnets are issued at a 'special price' of 'only' £240 by the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce. Then it says you fill in all the information online and the CoC print it, authorise it and post it out the following day. So what exactly are they doing for their fee? Providing some stationery and stamping it?

I'd still like to know on what basis MSUK think a carnet is required for non-professionals - all they say is 'Following advice, Motorsport UK understands that an ATA Carnet will be required to temporarily move motorsport vehicles and equipment across the border.'
All very vague and non-specific, sounding exactly like more Project Fear. Advice from whom? And what question was asked?
The guidance by the Birmingham CoC expert document states : (link: https://www.greaterbirminghamchamber...e-jan-2021.pdf)
There are three separate conventions that we can issue carnets for these are as follows:
•A) Commercial Samples–When goods are going out of the UK to be shown to potential customers to generate sales.
•B) International Trade Fairs/show/Exhibitions–When goods are going out for the purpose of being exhibited in a trade show. This can include the items themselves as well as exhibition stands
•C) Professional Equipment–When goods are going out for the purpose of fulfilling their function for such things as dry weather testing, road testing etc;
none of which sound anything like an amateur taking sports equipment on holiday. What we do is not that different from taking a tennis racquet and some spare balls abroad, or a rucksack full of climbing equipment for personal use.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I agree, although the carnet thing, not unexpected, does appear to be excessively costly. I wonder if organisers such as PA, Roadbook etc. Might lobby the Customs to reduce costs for amateurs. Just think of the impact on the 6hrs.

The costs are not set by Customs Peter - it's the cartel of Chambers of Commerce setting the fees for issuing and authorising the carnets, and providing the insurance bond against failure to re-export from the destination country. IF a carnet is indeed required - and I fail to be convinced on the evidence from MSUK so far - then there should be nothing to stop an individual creating the forms from templates and having them stamped up by their local CoC for a small fee, 25 quid would seem reasonable for 5 minutes work. On the same basis, as Aviva have the insurance bond scheme in place then the individual should be able to deal with them directly for the cover.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

The costs are not set by Customs Peter - it's the cartel of Chambers of Commerce setting the fees for issuing and authorising the carnets, and providing the insurance bond against failure to re-export from the destination country. IF a carnet is indeed required - and I fail to be convinced on the evidence from MSUK so far - then there should be nothing to stop an individual creating the forms from templates and having them stamped up by their local CoC for a small fee, 25 quid would seem reasonable for 5 minutes work. On the same basis, as Aviva have the insurance bond scheme in place then the individual should be able to deal with them directly for the cover.

Yup. My reference to C&I was because that's who may be asking for them. Worth checking directly methinks.

As to the sandwich thing, someone just likened it to fining people for walking with a cup of coffee. Over zealous was the phrase used.

[john ruston]

Answer is to race road registered vehicles!
No carnet
Reason for us playing with those Pre War things

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

Many thanks for your most helpful input on this.

Seems I'll be reviving old skills from my first job in shipping in 1960's and looking for a change of ASN. Small price to pay for 'taking back control'.

Doing a bit more reading up on this .

https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily Click on [If you do not use a carnet].
It appears you can use a " Duplicate List ", instead of having to pay for a carnet .
Not very obvious how it is done , probably because they would rather have everybody paying , but this is well worth checking out if you only go abroad a few times .

[Duddha]

You may read this, registered motor sport vehicles, private or commercial, it applies.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-fo...net-will-cover

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Duddha

You may read this, registered motor sport vehicles, private or commercial, it applies.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-fo...net-will-cover

Thanks Louis. The CARS UK rates appear lower than those quoted by MSUK.

Next question, do we need a carnet for the tow car or indeed any car we want to use touring Europe?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

The sandwich thing is actually in the rules .
https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-1-january-2021
No meat or dairy products to cross borders .

Just go Vegan! Although given the choice of giving up meat or giving up European trips the bacon buttie wins every time ;-)

>>>>>>>I'd still like to know on what basis MSUK think a carnet is required for non-professionals - all they say is 'Following advice, Motorsport UK understands that an ATA Carnet will be required to temporarily move motorsport vehicles and equipment across the border.'

Because the MSUK can't think beyond commercial race teams, privateers racing for fun don't cross their minds. We see it all the time in karting.