Aintree '57

[allez_jacques]

The last couple of months I've been busy creating my own Formula 1 database and lately I came across something I can't figure out exactly. It's about the British GP of 1957. According to Forix, Maurice Trintignant and Peter Collins shared a Ferrari D50 in this race and finished 4th. But the championship table shows that Trintignant was awarded 3 points and Collins 0. I always thought that in case of a shared drive the drivers shared the points so both should have got 1.5 point.

Does anybody have a clue?

[Rob29]

AFAIK the answer is that Collins did not drive for enough laps to qualify for points,just 4 I think.Around that time the rules semed to change from week to week.You will have to find the 'Autosport' reports of the time.Rules were changed c.56/57 to stop driver jumping from car to car to add points.

[Vitesse]

Rob is correct there - 1957 was the last year in which shared drives were allowed, but Collins drove only three laps before handing the car back. I think the rule at the time was that drivers had to complete at least 25% of the race to get points.

And to save you asking later, when you get to Italy 1958 you'll find a shared drive for Gregory and Shelby. Neither of them got points!! And in the 1958 German GP Cliff Allison got no points, even though he was fifth in the F1 class, as he finished tenth on the road behind the F2 cars (which weren't eligible for WC points!). Confused?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Vitesse
And in the 1958 German GP Cliff Allison got no points, even though he was fifth in the F1 class, as he finished tenth on the road behind the F2 cars (which weren't eligible for WC points!). Confused?

Think you will find that the F2 cars WERE eligable for points until 1960.F1 only stated engine must be under 2500cc u/s- no problen with running a smaller one!

[Vitesse]

This is one of those strange questions ...

In the 1957 & 1958 German GPs and the 1958 Moroccan GP the Formula 2 cars ran in a separate class: both the Ring and Ain Diab were long tracks and the idea was to keep spectator interest up - AFAIK the organisers treated these as a separate "race within a race" and the F2 cars were not considered to be running in the F1 race. Added to that, I have never seen a published points table showing McLaren with two points from Germany 1958.

On the other hand, there were a number of entries from Cooper and others with F2 cars in the period 1956-8 as the Climax engine was being developed. Sometimes these were pukka F2s, sometimes "stretched" engines, but as there was no separate class they were considered to be running in F1 and were eligible for points

[allez_jacques]

Okay, thanks for all the replies. I knew I could find the answer here...

[Roger Clark]

Both Paul Sheldon and the contemporary Autosport give McLaren two points for the 1958 German Grand Prix. However, it was always my understanding that the 1954-60 Formula 1 had a minimum engine size of 2-litres for unsupercharged cars. If this is so, it also calls into question the points won by Cooper drivers in 1957.

[fines]

There was no minimum displacement, but McLaren did not score points because he didn't take part in the German GP! The F2 race was just run at the same time, pure coincidence...

[Rob29]

What evidence do you have for that, fines? I certainly regarded 'Autosport'as gospel in those days.The German GP was unusual in that they did offer a prize for an F2 class,but that does not alter the fact that even Porsche sports cars qualified as F1 and so were eligable for WC points.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by fines
There was no minimum displacement, but McLaren did not score points because he didn't take part in the German GP! The F2 race was just run at the same time, pure coincidence...

Doug Nye, History of the Grand Prix Car 1945-65, Page 37 "... with unsupercharged enginesno greater than 2 1/2 litres, no smaller than 2 litres..."

[Milan Fistonic]

The Climax engines used by Cooper in 1957 were only 1960cc yet Salvadori scored 2 points for fifth in the British Grand Prix.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Roger Clark


Doug Nye, History of the Grand Prix Car 1945-65, Page 37 "... with unsupercharged enginesno greater than 2 1/2 litres, no smaller than 2 litres..."

Strange I have never seen that before in 45 yrs of following the sport.I can't think of any formula that ever had a MINIMUM engine size.There would be no point .Undersize F2 cars were in use in 1954-59,without separate classes.Even sports cars.In F2 a bog standard MGA once started a race.

[Ray Bell]

Formula One, 1961 to 1965, definitely had a minimum displacement... 1300cc. I've never heard of a minimum in the previous F1 either, but I'm a novice at this stuff...

[Roger Clark]

I believe that the 1957 Coopers were entered as 2.2 litres to get round the minimum size regulation. The Autosport report of the monaco Grand Prix gives that as Brabham's engine size, although Motor sport says the engine "was enlarged to almost 2 litres".

Ray is certainly correct about the minimum size of the 1961-65 formula, so we know that such regulations did exist.

[Ray Bell]

Climax engine sizes (in the FPF) grew to 1760, then 1960 then 2.2 and finally 2.5 litres (of course, they went to 2750cc for Indianapolis and F. Intercontinental), but on what dates did the 'growths' occur?

Climax fed the larger engines into the system piecemeal, Cooper and Rob Walker first IIRC, with Lotus also coming in on the act... but weren't the 12s (including the one that almost won at Spa) 1960cc?

There were no F2 cars in that race... I would suggest that this is proof that: a. There was no 2-litre lower limit, and; b. When entered as 2.2 litres the cars were in fact that size...

Unless, of course, it was politic to let the organisers think they really were competitive enough to run with the hares...

[Ray Bell]

On the topic of the German GP result of Bruce McLaren's, I don't have a contemporary report and wouldn't be able to find the other referenced I might have, but I have another possible bit of evidence to support fines:

Somewhere I think I recall that the F2 cars - and I'm not sure it was in this race or another German GP - started some little time after the F1 cars. Whether it was ten seconds, thirty seconds or what, I'm not sure.

This, of course, fits in with organisers keen to simply put extra cars on the 14.2-mile circuit for the benefit of the milling hordes.

But also, if this is the case, it was clearly a different race, simply a different race run on the same circuit at the same time.

fines...??

[Vitesse]

This wouldn't be the first time Sheldon has seemed to rewrite history: eg the Register's policy of applying modern classification rules to earlier races.

Posthumus in "German Grand Prix" calls the F2 class a "sub-race" (a curious term!), and gives entirely separate results, while Hayhoe says McLaren "was not eligible for points due to being in the F2 section of the race". Mike Lang gives similar results to Posthumus, awarding 5th place in F1 to Allison, but no points "as he was 10th on the road" - being two laps in arrears, I wonder if he was classified anyway

[Roger Clark]

The first 2.2s appeared in 1958. autosport's report that Brabham had such an engine at Monaco in 1957 must be either an (in my opinion unlikely) mistake or because the car was entered that way. And why should it be entered as a 2.2?

Doug Nye is a generally reliable writer. He is not infallible, but he must have got the idea of a lower limit from somewhere. I'm sure I've read it somewhere else, but I can't remember where.

[Rob29]

Just a thought.Did the lower limit only apply to the constructors championship? There was also an F2 constuctors cup in 58-60.Strictly thr drivers championship was not exclusive to F1 in any case as the Indy 500 also counted...

[fines]

Oh dear, what a can of worms I've opened here with what was basically a casual remark! I thought it was common knowledge that those F2 races at the 'Ring, Aintree and Morocco were NOT part of the WDC!!!?

As for the minimum displacement rule, I'm positively puzzled! How then did all those F2 cars compete in 1954, and the 2.0 Coopers and Lotuses, not to forget the Porsches, A-type Connaughts, old Gordinis and so on. With all due respect to Doug Nye, I think he's way off here.

[Vitesse]

Part of the answer to this is probably due to the fact that by tradition, there were not actually any really unified regulations, even for WDC races, especially as regards entries and classification of finishers. A few examples:

Monaco was "by invitation of the AC de Monaco only" until the fifties IIRC.

Graham Hill was allowed to keep his third place in the 1963 French GP: he was second on the road and was given a 1 minute penalty for a push start. However, the FIA withheld the points!

Paul Hawkins was classified at Monaco in 1965, despite the fact that he completed only 79 laps of 100 and his car ended up in the harbour!

I could come up with more oddities like this, if I had more time right now - I seem to remember a French GP where the classification included everyone who completed 50 per cent of the race.

[Vitesse]

Originally posted by fines
Oh dear, what a can of worms I've opened here with what was basically a casual remark! I thought it was common knowledge that those F2 races at the 'Ring, Aintree and Morocco were NOT part of the WDC!!!?

That's the problem with common knowledge, Michael! It's also known as "accepted wisdom"! Like our little problem with 1950s scoring ...

[It's OK, I'm not nagging!!!]

[Ray Bell]

A gut feeling I have insists that there was no lower limit. This is backed up by too many cars having run in too many races with much smaller engines.

The question marks then are:

Why did Brabham run at Monaco in 1957 with a 1.96 engine described as a 2.2?

Did Brabham indeed run at Aintree with his Cooper Bristol entered as being over 2-litre (a question raised in another place)?

Possibly Coventry Climax expected to have such an engine ready for Jack when the entry was made, it may have blown up or been too suspect to risk running, so the smaller engine went back in and it would be another six months before the 2.2 surfaced... sound reasonable?

Possibly there would be more starting money for a 2.2, conning the Prince's men into believing that the Cooper would be more competitive than it might have been expected to be with the smaller engine? Highly likely!

As for the second question, does anyone have a 1955 British GP programme or detailed entry list? Autosport?

Yes, Michael, common knowledge for you and for me... it's not from A Turn at the Wheel, but I believe I have read it somewhere.

[Milan Fistonic]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The question marks then are:

Why did Brabham run at Monaco in 1957 with a 1.96 engine described as a 2.2?

Possibly Coventry Climax expected to have such an engine ready for Jack when the entry was made, it may have blown up or been too suspect to risk running, so the smaller engine went back in and it would be another six months before the 2.2 surfaced... sound reasonable?

Possibly there would be more starting money for a 2.2, conning the Prince's men into believing that the Cooper would be more competitive than it might have been expected to be with the smaller engine? Highly likely!

The 1.96 engine that Brabham used at Monaco in 1957 was the only one in existence according to Walter Hassan's book, Climax in Coventry.

"Both Hassan and Mundy were fully aware that they had built in no reserves of space and strength to allow the engine (the 1475 FPF)to be enlarged at a later date. Indeed, the original stretch, to 1960cc for the Jack Brabham Cooper-Climax at the 1957 Monaco GP,......, was made reluctantly. Hassan said then that as far as he was concerned the absolute limit had been reached. Assembly of that first engine was completed by Alf Francis at the factory, and the engine then received just two days of running, setting-up and power-testing, followed by a rush back to Surbiton for fitment to the race car."

A single 2015cc engine was produced in 1958 for Rob Walker (Trintignant used it to win at Monaco) before four 2207cc engines were produced; two for Cooper and two for Lotus.

So there could have been no plans to run a 2.2 engine at the 1957 Monaco event. I go along with the starting money theory.

[Milan Fistonic]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Did Brabham indeed run at Aintree with his Cooper Bristol entered as being over 2-litre (a question raised in another place)?

Yes he did according to Doug Nye in his book Cooper Cars.

"He [Brabham] was keen to build a Formula 1 version of the Bob-tail around a 2-litre six-cylinder Bristol engine......
..It was allegedly going to use a 2.2-litre Bristol engine modified like Bob Gerard's renowned Libre racing special...
... Dean Delamont was keen to foster Brabham's career, and when the engine enlargement never happened a standard 2-litre was nodded through into the British GP, though official sources carefully quoted it as '2.2'."

Still doesn't explain why the subterfuge was required, only that it did happen.

Mike Lawrence confirms the story in his book Grand Prix Cars 1945-65.

".. though it never did get a 2.2-litre engine as the organisers of the British GP knew only too well, but they nodded it through because it was a good thing to do."