LM24 Whats the future of LMP's at Le Mans??

Garrett · 1 Jul 2004, 20:56 (Ref:1022953)

Yesterday, I went to a book store and picked up a Racecar Engineering magazine. One of the stories discussed the future of the LMP's at Le Mans. The article interviewed some engineers of some the past LMPs and what they thought could become of the class. Some think that GTS will take over to fight for overall, like in the 1950s. Others said that it will take time for the rules to set in before major manufactures come back with LMPS for outrght wins at Le Mans. 2004 and 2005 are being called "the transition years", as for 2006 will be the year to showcase new "works" LMPs at LM. I think that the LMP class will survive for the future races with Audi entering a "works" R9 for 2005 to be followed by other manufactures in 2006. What do you think will happen??!

Chevyguy · 1 Jul 2004, 21:01 (Ref:1022967)

I've been screaming GTS all day today, as I have been for some time. Have you got a pic of the new Audi A8? From what I've heard, it's some sort of supercar. How nice it is to have it introduced right after the Carrera. Interesting stuff.

jhansen · 1 Jul 2004, 21:44 (Ref:1023023)

If the ACO push GTS forward for overall wins, it will be in the form of the new Masserati, or something like the GT1 cars. IMO of course. But I feel the LMP class will continue on. Audi have made their intentions clear and perhaps Porsche will return as well. Zytek are very focussed on producing a hybrid, as are several others.

Osella · 1 Jul 2004, 23:49 (Ref:1023126)

a hybrid Zytek? what's that??

MulsanneMike · 2 Jul 2004, 00:09 (Ref:1023134)

The ACO stated the week of Le Mans that Prototypes would continue to be the top category. Add to that yesterday's annoucement from the ACO regarding the Maserati MC12, and it is clear they are asserting that direction.

Cadete · 2 Jul 2004, 00:18 (Ref:1023142)

Like MulsanneMike said, the ACO wants LMPs to be the at the top in Le Mans. And yes, 2004/05 are transition years, new rules have been implemented and the old chassis will gradually give place to new ones.

Chevyguy, are you sure about the Audi A8? The A8 is the limousine Audi, it's more recent generation has been around for at least a year, and it is hardly GT material...
Perhaps you are referring to the Audi Le Mans concept car, which used the base of a Lambo (can't remmember if it was the Murcielago or the Gallardo) but the engine had either a supercharger or a turbo, can't remmember well either. But there was never a definite answer whether it would become a production car or if it would be a concept car forever.

Osella, a hybrid Zytek is a Zytek adapted to the LMP1 regs, which is what Zytek will have to do if they don't wish to build a totaly new car. Currently the Zytek races in the LMP1 class, but under the old LMP675 rules.

Mal · 2 Jul 2004, 06:37 (Ref:1023313)

Quote:

Originally posted by MulsanneMike
The ACO stated the week of Le Mans that Prototypes would continue to be the top category. Add to that yesterday's annoucement from the ACO regarding the Maserati MC12, and it is clear they are asserting that direction.

Excuse my ignorance but what was yesterdays announcement regarding the MC12?

Chevyguy · 2 Jul 2004, 07:00 (Ref:1023328)

OK Cadete, there's no reason I would know better than you. What I got from Speed's coverage of Le Mans, was that they had a mid engine "supercar" there. I heard the A8 name used. Must have been talking about said limo. It hit me as a potential GTS car.

Maybe I'm just wishing Vette would win Le Mans, but it seems everybody talks LMP, yet the signs say GTS. You think maybe Porsche, VAG, and FIAT are kind of waiting around to see what happens? Regardless, Mike is pretty much the local authority on LMPs, so if he says LMP is here to stay, I beleive it.

**Aysedasi** · 2 Jul 2004, 07:14 (Ref:1023340)

Le Mans should never be won by a GT(S) car. The prototype category (whatever we call it) should always be the top dog. And yes, thats just my own (but very strongly held) personal opinion which I know others don't necessarily share. I have no great problem with GT1s (as in the paast with the Toyota, McLaren, Nissan etc.) - they were stupendous cars. The prototype class should be the epitome of sports car racing at Le Mans.

There - at least you know where I'm coming from (if you didn't already.....

)

CorvetteC6R · 2 Jul 2004, 07:46 (Ref:1023369)

Chevyguy...We don't fully know what the C6R will be...Could it be based of the so called "Blue Devil" concept that is rumored from GM? We also do not know what the C6 Z06 will look like...It had been said it will be different than the baseline C6..Its possible to have a GTP car, Like the Corvette GTP a few years back? (wow what a car!).. I'm sure I am totally off the mark, but you never know! LMP will be the class, but I question if GT-1 should be...Sorry but the best car I have seen run in Lemans is the Toyota GT-One..I dunno..I do think however, prototypes should use future methods of power..Such as Diesel or a hybrid..Isn't a Proto about future technology?!

Mal · 2 Jul 2004, 07:48 (Ref:1023371)

Quote:

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Le Mans should never be won by a GT(S) car. The prototype category (whatever we call it) should always be the top dog. And yes, thats just my own (but very strongly held) personal opinion which I know others don't necessarily share. I have no great problem with GT1s (as in the paast with the Toyota, McLaren, Nissan etc.) - they were stupendous cars. The prototype class should be the epitome of sports car racing at Le Mans.

There - at least you know where I'm coming from (if you didn't already..... )

My opinion exactly.

But what is the MC12 - should it be considered GTS or should it be puched into a new GT1 type class - I tend to think the latter.

Pilgrimage · 2 Jul 2004, 08:28 (Ref:1023421)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mal
My opinion exactly.

But what is the MC12 - should it be considered GTS or should it be puched into a new GT1 type class - I tend to think the latter.

I agree - but then there is the danger of having yet another class. I sometimes feel that there are too many "similar" classes already (really just thinking about LMP2 here- although i do appreciate its benefits).

Also should the rules be changed just to encorporate a new car? (i'd love to see it rcae though). My view is if the car fits the rules - it races, if not- then it doesn't. Stability of the rules is whats required and if Maser have developed a car that doesn't fit - that's pretty stupid and ignorant IMHO.

MulsanneMike · 2 Jul 2004, 10:51 (Ref:1023567)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mal
Excuse my ignorance but what was yesterdays announcement regarding the MC12?

Apparently the ACO have rejected the MC12. In order for it to race at Le Mans they have cited that the car needs to be shortened by 15 cm and narrowed by 10 cm. Maserati have apparently accepted this and are aiming at Le Mans 2006 with a compliant car. In the mean time the car could still compete in the FIA championship but that is still being negotiated. This all according to Autosport via dailysportscar.

Javi · 2 Jul 2004, 11:03 (Ref:1023573)

If Maserati is about to modify the MC12 just for Le Mans they are very very serious about it, and I am not just saying them winning GTS. Does anyone think this car has the chance of winning overall??
The testing times at Paul Ricard don´t seem that fast, but just remember the 1996 Porsche GT1, they were not thinking about winning its class, it was aimed at an overall victory...

Pilgrimage · 2 Jul 2004, 11:11 (Ref:1023580)

I expect that with the amount of development involved in this car anything less than class win would be a disappointment. I expect that the real target (a la Macca F1) is an overall win.

andy97 · 2 Jul 2004, 11:18 (Ref:1023585)

Quote:

Originally posted by Aysedasi
[B]Le Mans should never be won by a GT(S) car. The prototype category (whatever we call it) should always be the top dog.

Why not? What were Jag D Types, GT 40s and even Porsche 935's if not the GTS cars of there day? Nobody complained about those sort of cars then and nobody clamoured for Formula type cars with fully enclosed bodywork which, in my own very strong opinion, is what the prototypes have become.

Sports car racing might even become globally popular again if the cars racing at Le Mans, Sebring, Daytona etc etc had some relevance to cars that were actually available for sale.

KA · 2 Jul 2004, 11:59 (Ref:1023625)

Quote:

Originally posted by andy97
Why not? What were Jag D Types, GT 40s and even Porsche 935's if not the GTS cars of there day? Nobody complained about those sort of cars then and nobody clamoured for Formula type cars with fully enclosed bodywork which, in my own very strong opinion, is what the prototypes have become.

Sports car racing might even become globally popular again if the cars racing at Le Mans, Sebring, Daytona etc etc had some relevance to cars that were actually available for sale.

The problem with the GTS route comes with making sure that the cars keep some relevance to cars actually for sale- there would need to be very strict controls on eligibility to stop a replay of what happened with GT1- what relevance did cars like the Merc CLK-GTR, or the Toyota GT-One have to anything available for sale.....?

Cadete · 2 Jul 2004, 12:22 (Ref:1023640)

KA's point is my view too. You mention the Porsche 935, that was a silhouette from the Group 5 days, it hardly had anything to do with the car available for sale.

**Aysedasi** · 2 Jul 2004, 12:26 (Ref:1023646)

Quote:

Originally posted by andy97
Why not? What were Jag D Types, GT 40s and even Porsche 935's if not the GTS cars of there day?

No, I don't think so actually. I think they were far more akin to prototypes in reality.

Cadete · 2 Jul 2004, 12:32 (Ref:1023652)

andy, remmember that the Porsche 917 and the Ferrari 512 were also named as GTs, only because they had 25 units built.

**Aysedasi** · 2 Jul 2004, 12:34 (Ref:1023657)

Quote:

Originally posted by KA
The problem with the GTS route comes with making sure that the cars keep some relevance to cars actually for sale- there would need to be very strict controls on eligibility to stop a replay of what happened with GT1- what relevance did cars like the Merc CLK-GTR, or the Toyota GT-One have to anything available for sale.....?

Its a viewpoint thing really, isn't it?

These GT1 cars had little or no relevance to cars available for sale. But so what. I for one would consider myself all the poorer (with the benefit of hindsight) if I hadn't had the chance of seeing these magnificent cars running at Le Mans (and I'd welcome them back tomorrow).

I'm reasonably well versed as to Le Mans history and I appreciate why the 24 Hours was created in the first place, but a lot of time has passed since 1923 and the issue of relevance of the relevance to the cars competing to the car buyer on the street is pretty limited, IMO. The GTS rules already remove the cars competing in that class a long way away from "the man in the street". If you want "relevant" racing, all you really have is GTs - and I can guarantee the crowds at Le Mans would plummet if all we had to watch were 911s.......

pounetbf · 2 Jul 2004, 12:38 (Ref:1023662)

Quote:

Originally posted by MulsanneMike
Apparently the ACO have rejected the MC12. In order for it to race at Le Mans they have cited that the car needs to be shortened by 15 cm and narrowed by 10 cm. Maserati have apparently accepted this and are aiming at Le Mans 2006 with a compliant car. In the mean time the car could still compete in the FIA championship but that is still being negotiated. This all according to Autosport via dailysportscar.

Basically, th boss of ACO has said : "a GTS shall be a road car adapted to the track and not the opposite"

'Vette, viper, f550, ppagani, (even saleen) are initially road cars.
not the new Maserati. even if a lot is sold

Cadete · 2 Jul 2004, 12:39 (Ref:1023667)

You can still see these GT1 cars back, Aysedasi, but in a category that is more suited to them, the LMP1.

I have nothing against the CLK-GTR or the GT-One, the cars themselves, I think they were great prototypes.

What I don't like in them was that they were put out as GT and raced against real GT cars. But luckily today we have a LMP1 category that includes closed protos, so if anyone wants to build a GT-One like car, they can race it in LMP1.

RTH · 2 Jul 2004, 13:01 (Ref:1023689)

I would like to see an end to prototypes at Le Mans to be replaced by three classes of modified cars based on road going production sports cars with a maximum showroom price of up to £60,000 with a minimum proven production of at least 250 cars every year.

Say up to 2 litres and 800kg
up to 3 litres and 1200kg
up to 4 litres and 1600kg

The exact details could be thrashed out with some research - but you get the idea so that in theory all cars would have a similar power to weight ratio, none would have wings an overall win might come from any class.

Its all fantasy of course as the ACO is firmly wedded to prototypes preferably french built with french drivers and painted blue .
Pity we don't have our own 24 hr race for sports cars in UK (at Snetterton )

**Aysedasi** · 2 Jul 2004, 17:07 (Ref:1023892)

Quote:

Originally posted by RTH
I would like to see an end to prototypes at Le Mans to be replaced by three classes of modified cars based on road going production sports cars with a maximum showroom price of up to £60,000 with a minimum proven production of at least 250 cars every year.

Say up to 2 litres and 800kg
up to 3 litres and 1200kg
up to 4 litres and 1600kg

The exact details could be thrashed out with some research - but you get the idea so that in theory all cars would have a similar power to weight ratio, none would have wings an overall win might come from any class.

Its all fantasy of course as the ACO is firmly wedded to prototypes preferably french built with french drivers and painted blue .
Pity we don't have our own 24 hr race for sports cars in UK (at Snetterton )

Fantasy? Phew, thank goodness for that.

I'd love to see a 24 hour sportscar race in England, at Snett or anywhere else. It wouldn't stop me and tens of thousands of others going to Le Mans though......

But I wouldn't bother going to Le Mans to watch your three categories, I'm afraid. I'd possible still go to France, but I'd stay in the bar.......

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