Privateer LMP1 Teams?

[truebeliever]

With the new rules out for 2014 and beyond in LMP1, there seems to be perhaps a bit of an effort on the ACO's part, to open the door to privateer teams again, rather than totally relying on Audi to put on the show.

Not being so technical, I am not sure as to whether these rules will bring P1 teams out of the woodwork to compete? Does anyone who knows a bit more than me about these things, understand whether the rules would allow any privateer team to be in the same race as Audi, Toyota and Porsche, or it is always going to be the best of the rest situation?

I would assume the ACO is looking at current P2 teams to perhaps pick up the baton and try and run in the higher class? In which case, what is it going to cost a privateer team to run in the WEC series, using a normal aspirated, non hybrid set up, any ideas people?

[wolfhound]

The LMP1 rules do allow for privateer teams where energy recovery systems are not as important. I suspect the ACO want to leave the rules open enough should the manufacturers disappear as thet do when it suits them.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

With the new rules out for 2014 and beyond in LMP1, there seems to be perhaps a bit of an effort on the ACO's part, to open the door to privateer teams again, rather than totally relying on Audi to put on the show.

Not being so technical, I am not sure as to whether these rules will bring P1 teams out of the woodwork to compete? Does anyone who knows a bit more than me about these things, understand whether the rules would allow any privateer team to be in the same race as Audi, Toyota and Porsche, or it is always going to be the best of the rest situation?

I would assume the ACO is looking at current P2 teams to perhaps pick up the baton and try and run in the higher class? In which case, what is it going to cost a privateer team to run in the WEC series, using a normal aspirated, non hybrid set up, any ideas people?

Technically-speaking, the new rules are designed to ensure a level playing field in the LMP1 class and privateers should be able to compete with the constructors. Well, that's the theory.

We all know too well that competitiveness also depends on how much money you can invest in the development of the car. In that respect, privateers will hardly be in a position to compete with the Mighty like Toyota, Porsche and Audi.

I am looking forward to seeing what the ACO-FIA will do to help privateers in the LMP1 class. They made a promise back in June 2012 that "private teams are (to be) protected". At least, the ACO-FIA have a tool now in the rules that would allow them to specifically target and help privateers running in the LMP1-L "sub-category". Referring again to the ACO-FIA 2012 promise, a consequence of the new rules is supposed to include:

Adjustment of the performance of the cars in the column without KERS if necessary to protect private teams which use them

In that respect, I am convinced that it is in the best interests of the privateers NOT to run with a hybrid car.

[JoestForEver]

I'm a bit pessimistic about that. With the hybrid rules getting more and more complicated, it will be harder for the privateers to keep up with the pace of works team. Outsourcing R&D to contractors like Oreca, Dallara et al. is no longer the way to build the most competitive prototype. IMO the LMP1-L sub class functions as the TC1 and TC2 in the WTCC, with the former for rich privateers and works to produce new-reg fast wide-body cars while the latter keeping budget tight teams still by and large in the game.
IMO, introducing budget cap or allowing only one upgrade package every two years （as the GTE class）can be a solution. Surely I want to see private WSC95s beating factory 911 GT1s again, but it's extremely hard.

[hondafan37]

In me point of view the ACO should give more rules benefits to private to attract more P1. The privateers LMP1 must be in 800 Kg or 775 kg, to have a chance at competing for overall victories, at least in some WEC circuits with more curves than Le Mans.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

In me point of view the ACO should give more rules benefits to private to attract more P1. The privateers LMP1 must be in 800 Kg or 775 kg, to have a chance at competing for overall victories, at least in some WEC circuits with more curves than Le Mans.

Seems like a good idea .....so it will never get implemented

Clearly the ACO has its own business agenda as far as the manufacturers go, and I did read somewhere the carpark at the ACO offices in Le Mans, seems to have a high level of Audis parked in it.

But I do think the bottom line is that the series does need more LMP1 cars, be they manufacturers or private, to make this class more interesting.

[Speed-King]

I don't think a separate privateer ruleset is really the way to go, as it just makes a mockery of all the research that the manufacturers put into their programs.

I'd rather see some satellite teams with customer cars from the works teams. If Audi/Porsche/Toyota each gave away one year old car and ran two full season entries themselves, that would be quite sufficient, I think.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Seems like a good idea .....so it will never get implemented

Really easy to just throw numbers out there, especially before a single race under the new rules has been driven. If the weight limit for the No-ERS class was 800 kg now, then you would probably suggest it has to be 750 kg... and so on.

Clearly the ACO has its own business agenda as far as the manufacturers go, and I did read somewhere the carpark at the ACO offices in Le Mans, seems to have a high level of Audis parked in it.

So you are suggesting bribery, but is that a serious suggestion?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't think a separate privateer ruleset is really the way to go, as it just makes a mockery of all the research that the manufacturers put into their programs.

Agreed. In addition I also think that the privateer sub-championship makes kind of a mockery of the privateer teams, because it just highlights that they are "2nd class citizens". Even when they win that championship, nobody cares about it.

And as a fan I just really don't get that WEC has so many (too many) sub-championships in general, there is not a single one where the manufacturer teams and privateer teams are listed in the same standings as entries. Compare to this. Then in addition there could be a Cup for a the privateers, but only awarded for the best. This "everybody wins" has to be detrimental in the long run.

[deggis]

I still don't get this old quote by Rebellion's Hayden and whether this is the right interpretation:

"The most important factor though behind our decision. Not just on the powerplant but on the whole programme, is the new regulations, and it isn’t a case of what it says, but rather what it doesn’t say. The current regulations have determined that a 2% performance gap is acceptable between the factory cars and that for private teams like ours. That regulation has been omitted for the new regulations, and by definition it is now regarded as unacceptable to have such a gap in performance."

http://www.dailysportscar.com/?p=8006

Especially now considering that ACO came out and said the rules are frozen for one year.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

Really easy to just throw numbers out there, especially before a single race under the new rules has been driven. If the weight limit for the No-ERS class was 800 kg now, then you would probably suggest it has to be 750 kg... and so on.


So you are suggesting bribery, but is that a serious suggestion?

'Tis the season, why do you seem grouchy? 20kg lighter than factory cars in 2014 is less than it is now at 30kg. The cars are smaller, they should have no problem being 800kg w.o hybrids. I too feel the aco missed the mark in promoting efficiency with these relatively small weight drops.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

'Tis the season, why do you seem grouchy?

Grumpy Cat is my idol.

20kg lighter than factory cars in 2014 is less than it is now at 30kg. The cars are smaller, they should have no problem being 800kg w.o hybrids. I too feel the aco missed the mark in promoting efficiency with these relatively small weight drops.

It was about difference between No ERS cars and ERS cars, continuation of this post: http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....31&postcount=5

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I'd rather see some satellite teams with customer cars from the works teams. If Audi/Porsche/Toyota each gave away one year old car and ran two full season entries themselves, that would be quite sufficient, I think.

I think that's a good idea.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by JacobP

I think that's a good idea.

Similar to LMP2: pricecap all 1 year old LMP1 cars and make it mandatory that all manufacturers have to offer out the same number of cars that were ran in LM the year before. Should be enough to get a big feild of 2nd hand LMP1 cars out there

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Similar to LMP2: pricecap all 1 year old LMP1 cars and make it mandatory that all manufacturers have to offer out the same number of cars that were ran in LM the year before. Should be enough to get a big feild of 2nd hand LMP1 cars out there

I like this idea but I don´t see how is possible to control manufacturers selling below the cost.

[Gingers4Justice]

I also think many if not most privateer teams don't have the expertise to run such complicated cars.

I would imagine there aren't too many KERS experts floating around - most of them are either employed by F1 teams or LMP1 manufacturers already.

[Maelochs]

Even if Porsche, Toyota, and Audi each put three cars on the market, would anyone be able to afford to buy and run them?

How big a team of engineers are necessary to integrate and adjust the various hybrid systems with the ICE for different tracks? How would privateers repair a damaged hybrid unit? Woiuld the factories be obliged to pay for big teams of engineers to work with the purchasing privateer teams?

Also until WEC actually offers sponsorship exposure, I don't see where teams would find the money to really be competitive with the factories.

Maybe a few millionaires wanting to cut their tax burdens could run teams out-of-pocket (or put the bill on the the corporate ledger to cut corporate taxes) but I don't see any billionaires getting involved, and that is really what it would take to be able to match the factories.

FIA-WEC would have to commit to giving privateers whatever breaks were necessary to compete, and that invites a host of problems.

Even if privateers were given all the fuel they could burn and had their weight cut, they couldn't match the intense development programs of the factories. But if they did--if the weight was 750 kg and fuel allotment let them make 1000 bhp--and if they could hire drivers who could handle that--then the factories would be upset about being beat by Rebellion or Muscle Milk.

If WEC got a lto more publicity, they might make the factories even less willing to get beat by privateers. Of course, it also might make factories more willing to tilt the odds by running customer teams--de facto factory teams under privateer banners. But that still freezes out the true privateers.

On the whole I don't see the money in P1 right now for privateers to make it.

[JoestForEver]

Recall the Kolles R10 and Oreca 908. Most of the time they aren't competitive enough, are they?

[vincegail]

Oreca has won the Sebring 12 Hours in 2011, and were faster than the Audis at Le Mans in 2010, albeit a lot more fragile.

Wouldn't call that uncompetitive.

The Kolles Audis were much more of the pace indeed.

[Speed-King]

In addition to that, Strakka made quite a bit of noise about wanting to run a hybrid HPD, Dyson ran a hybrid for a while in ALMS and in general hybrids are only going to become more common. IIRC DTM also has plans for adding an ERS in the not too distant future and sooner or later it's also bound to appear in the various F1 feeder series.

[Fogelhund]

The R10 simply wasn't a very good car, with a fine line of being setup right, or terribly wrong. At the very minimum a subset of rules need to be created for the privateer, that gives them at least an illusion of competitiveness. We all know that even if they are equal on speed, the typically better overall team and strategy will win out in the end, except in very rare circumstances. We are incredibly lucky to have three manufacturers interested right now, but even this year with mostly three (manufacturer) (and one privateer) cars just isn't enough to grow the sport.

Throw out all of the excuses in the world as to why it is difficult to attract privateers, but ultimately that falls square in the laps of the organizers/rules makers. They need to be part of the top level of the sport.

[Maelochs]

Strakka never did end up running a hybrid, Dyson scrapped the plan because it couldn't afford development, and while hybrid units will eventually become commonplace, that will happen after factory-funded teams have done sufficient development that privateers can use them.

Oreca had very close ties to Peugeot--was basically an extension of Peugeot--and so had plenty of technical support. Ko0lles didn't, and couldn't get the R10s to run.

A true privateer hasn't really challenged a works team for a couple of rules iterations and I don't see the 2014 rules offering privateers any real favors. 800 kg and unlimited fuel might do it, but not much else. The money just isn't there. (IMO)

Hopefully Rebellion makes me eat my words.

[Speed-King]

800 kg and unlimited fuel might do it, but not much else.

Try selling that to the manufacturers... "Sorry Dr. U, and thanks for all the shiny new Q5s in the ACO company car park, but we just wrote the rules so you get beaten by some Swiss garagistes on a shoestring budget"...

I think it would be much more acceptable for the manufacturers to be beaten by privateers if it happened with the privateers running factory developed equipment, i.e. fighting on a largely equal footing.

Everything else would be like me sprinting against Usain Bolt, with him doing 100m and me doing 50m, which really would be an insult to Mr.Bolt, the spectators and ultimately also myself.

[chernaudi]

Fact is that both the WEC and TUSCC have to change from being a pay to play atmosphere that favors factory teams like Audi, Toyota and Porsche because they have the money to build such exotic machinery, to one where all teams can turn some profit.

Get a major series sponsor that can dump a ton of money into the series, increase race purses and point fund, and make it so that private teams can afford factory-spec equipment.

I have no doubt that there are private teams that, with support from the factory, can run cars like modern LMP1's, but they don't have the sponsorship bucks to do it. Team sponsorship can also make it easier for teams to enter the all-pro categories, since they don't have to rely on pay drivers, but instead on corporate sponsorship.

But right now, the lack of such dollars is the biggest problem, and with the factory teams doing most of the FIA/ACO's and IMSA's work with promo, I don't see that changing soon. And it's a problem in all motorsports--even F1 and NASCAR teams are struggling with corporate sponsorship.

[MyNameIsNigel]

At this point, I don't see any interest for a privateer to run with a hybrid car. Too complex to run. Too costly to develop or buy. No advantage in terms of overall energy allocation (on paper at least).

Besides, the ACO made it crystal clear in their original statement of June 2012 that privateers running "without KERS" (read, in the "LMP-L sub-category") will be "protected". Here are the explicit statements on pages 7 and 8 of the ACO press release:

Adjustment of the performance of the cars in the column without KERS if necessary to protect private teams which use them (sport and spectacle)

Private teams are protected

I would hope that this "promise" will be duly reflected in the new Sporting Regulations that are to be established before the start of the 2014 season.

The only "problem" is that Rebellion Racing will be the only private team to run in 2014. Oak Racing/Onroak will possibly run their car after Le Mans (I don't believe it will be ready in time for the big one), but the car is likely going to come too late to be sufficiently competitive. In other words, the ACO-FIA will have to carry out adjustments for the LMP1-L sub-category on the basis of the level of competitiveness of a single private team. This is unfortunately far from giving a sufficiently representative basis to carry out adjustments. It's quite unfortunate that we don't have more diversity in the LMP1-L sub-category in 2014.