National Racing - Good / Bad

[Dan Friel]

Ok then, there's been a general concensus that national motorsport in this country was better than it presently is.. so what's happened in the last 5 years - and is it good or bad?? My personal opinions on the matter…

The Good:

Goodwood Revival Meeting
Rockingham circuit
Radicals
CSCC race package
British F3 and GT's (both remain strong)
Super Coupe Cup
Mighty Minis
TGP
Castle Combe showing that club meetings can be successful
VBH in a Ginetta
Ten Tenths!!

The Bad:

Formula Palmer Audi
Interactive Sportscars
Proton Cup - nice idea someone!!
Eurocars
ASCARS (so far)
Lydden going to close next year (another clubbie option lost - cheers McLaren)
BTCC on the decline
Octagon now owning the majority of British motor racing venues
Decline in number of marshals (Cadwell last month, we had a total of 31!!)
Formula Honda (600's) - why can't they race with the Monopostos??
Super Mighty Minis
Autosport club reporting..
Shane Lynch in a Marcos

And on a serious note, the terrible accidents that have occurred over the last couple of years, which have claimed the life's of a marshal and several race drivers. Hopefully some lessons have been learnt which will avoid any dreadful repeats.

Does that summarise everything?? What have I missed??

[Craig]

Think you pretty much summed it up - don't know what you've got against the Super Mighty Minis though - we stayed right until the end at Snetterton especially to watch them and were greeted with a superb race. Okay, there were only 12 cars out, but the field is steadily increasing - give it time.

The one thing that concerns me about the state of the national racing scene though is the shere number of championships out there - if we could just reduce them by 10-20% we would be greatly better off all round I think. I understand that the MSA are not permitted to prevent any series from starting apart from on safety grounds, but perhaps we're beginning to see this reduction occuring anyway; by natural wasteage.

Autosport is a joke nowadays - club/national racing or otherwise - they should rename it F1 Racing or something...

[Chris Y]

I think I mostly agree with your list Dan! I think you've summed up the feelings of a lot of people about certain championships. Possibly add Sports 2000 to the 'bad' list as they've just been canned by the 750mc, so I heard..

However, in certain cases you have to look at the longer view. For example, in 1996, you may have written off the Mighty Minis, because there were only 6 cars competing. It was a new championship that year. The following year they had about 12-14 competitors, and the year after, there was 20 or more. By 1999, there were too many competitors for most grids (30+), and you had to book early to avoid disappointment..

The Mighty Minis then were a growing championship, as the Supers are now. Last year there were only about 6-8 competitors, now there are 12 or so, next year...?

I don't mean to sound like I'm always defending Mighty/Super racing - it's just that it's the championship I know most about.. The other championships on your list have either been around for a while, or just never really got off the ground in the first place.

One thing I really agree with - Castle Combe.. Why can't other circuits follow their lead? I'm sure motor racing in this country would be in much better health!

[TimD]

Interesting that Autosport reporting has come up. I was browsing through a 1966 edition this evening, and noted that the Club racing reports represented the majority of the page content of the magazine. A report on a round of the World Sportscar Championship was almost slipped in as an afterthought.

For me, the biggest problem with club motorsport today is partly the weight of championships, but more specifically, it is the weight of one-make manufacturer driven championships.

I would class in this the Radicals, Legends, LM3000, Eurocars, ASCAR, and the like. These are machines that are utterly disconnected from anything road-based or derived from any existing racing trend. They are artificial constructs.

Back in that 1960s magazine, there were club single seaters, be they 500cc's or Formula 3, there were Clubmans Sports (which catered for Lotus 7s as well as home-made cars), and there were varieties of road-car based championships.

While we have the stock hatches, these seem to be a very blunt instrument indeed. Where are the championships for light GT cars, machines which can have the numbers peeled off and driven home? The HSCC's Roadsports series is full of carefully driven, immaculately prepared Elans, Marcoseses, Lancias and even a Jensen Interceptor. Where is the equivalent contemporary series for - say - Toyota MR2, BMW Z3, Vauxhall VX220?

Why not a race for Ginetta G27s, Lotus Elises and MG F's rather than three one-make championships?

Just a thought.

[Stephen Green]

Dan,
I would add to the good list Caterhams! They always give excellent racing and full grids. As far as Super Mighty Mini's are concerned I tend to agree with you. It's interesting to note that many of the ones on the good list are relatively cheap formula's for drivers to enter, and the racing is also very close!

Decline in the number of marshals. Well, I have an axe to grind there as you know and have made my voice quite clear in other forums on this matter. Without going into too much detail, new marshals are put off by the cost of the equipment we have to buy. Fireproof underwear, overals, gloves, boots, whistles et-al. I'm not in favour of marshals being paid, but overals supplied by the clubs would be a help as would the resumption of breakfast vouchers. When I marshal it costs me petrol to and from the circuit and breakfast (£5 at Brands). If you don't earn a great deal of money or have to drive a long way to the circuit, it all adds up over the course of the year.

Stephen

http://www.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/themarshalsclub

[AndyF]

It has been quite noticable to me this year that most grids seem to be down at Club level. Amalgamation could be the key - but how far do you go. One success story I would like to add is the end of meeting Handicap race that is held at Lydden. Why can't other circuits follow this idea and give all the saloon and sports drivers who stay to the end, another race.
In terms of Marshalling, it seems very difficult to attract new ones. Personally, I have only Marshalled two events, as I am always working as a Journalist, and I have only one track that is less than 1.5 hours drive away (Thruxton).
Another failure could be the British Formula 3000 (or something like that) which was proposed by the BRSCC but fell apart about 2 years ago.

Andrew

[Dan Friel]

Sports 2000 being dropped by the 750 MC is a bad thing - but also a sign of the success of the Radical, Classic Clubman and Actual SPorts 2000 series.. 750 MC did the right thing maybe.

Caterham's excellent, but have been around for more than 5 years, Mighty Mini championships should be combined.

Gear should be supplied for marshals - I need some new Probans!! but really don't understand teh attraction of marshalling at a BTCC or GP meeting - 2/3 days of total boredom and getting bossed about, not good.

And Andy, what do you drive?? Brands, Combe and Goodwood are all easily within 1.5 hours from Pompey, espcially early in the morning..

[Lola]

Motoring news and Autosports coverage of national racing at the moment is pathetic. Motorsports in the Uk is one of the top 3 earners in this country outside industry. Lets promote grassroots motorsport. If it wasnt for club racing most engineers and teams would not have the grounding to make it big in the international arena.

Good
TGP
Monoposto
Rockingham
CART in the UK

Bad
Rockingham CART ticket prices
Protons. They take up too much padock space for so few cars
Octagan. What hapened to the free club races they promised
Entry fees
support for marshals. Equipment etc.....

[bella]

motoring news (or whatever it calls itself) is useless at club reports. autosport isn't that bad, but it's had to turn into what the readership wants from it, which is an international motorsport magazine (ps more f3000 interviews, please, autosport).

as for the series go, i reckon all the minis should join up for a few more meetings like the mini festival. if i said to my friends 'there's a whole day's worth of mini racing for £10, d'you wanna come along?' i know at least of them would say 'yeah, why not?' because minis are absolute class.

andy, the british f3000 series moved across half and half to italy, where it became f3000 italia, and now european f3000. i'd say that's quite a success, it's filled a hole in the ladder between f3 and international f3000.

but anyway.

i think the problem with grass roots racing is with welcoming 'outsiders' in. i referred to it as 'first contact' in the touring car forum. the problem with encoreging people out to club racing is that first timers don't know of any names, or people to go and talk to, and in an an environment where everyone knows everyone else, it's a bit nasty. a lot of series turn into great events when you know someone racing. not much can be done about that, really.

it's good having a lot of meetings though. it means the avid motorsport fan (or the just plain bored) can go to meeting every weekend, choose what they want to see, from f3 to touring cars to minis to caterhams...

[Marshal]

I'd agree with most that's been said here, particular highlights for me being Combe and Goodwood. Marshalling numbers is a worry though, particularly when you look at the age profile of species.... How we tackle that I don't know.

Also, IMO we need less quantity and more quality in race meetings, as this would help both crowds and grids.

I may be the only but I also think the Powertour has been a good thing for racing, particularly in its current guise.

[Rimrider]

Your not alone Marshal. I to think that the Powertour has been a good success this year. The racing has been excellent and the Tour provides a good variation in categories. The addition of Formula Ford has been a big bonus and the paddock has started to look more and more presentable.

[AndyF]

Overall I think the Powertour has been a success. This time last year it was being rubbished because of low spectator numbers (often only around the 2000-5000 mark). Althoughb there has been no drastic improvement in the series, it does offer an excellent chance for supporting series to become more recognised - as has happened with the BTCC this year. For example, the VW Cup has been offered a guest slot at Donington Pk in September for a non-championship race after impressive performances this year.

[Chris Y]

Bella has a good point.. Some race series may not be particularly interesting, unless you know someone who races in them. Also - you may not have heard of a particular championship, until someone you know is doing that series, or is competing in a supporting championship..

The powertour had a good idea with the 'one to watch' thing. It got you close to one particular driver - gave you someone to cheer for even if you knew no-one else running..

We generally need more promotion for motorsport in this country.. More spectators means more gate revenue, more volunteer marshalls possibly, etc. It can only be a good thing..

[bella]

i think it would be smart to start emphasising the idea of a family day out. even if the parents let their kids play football in the spctator areas, and don't understand the idea that motorsport is dangerous, and you should always have a place to run away to just in case.
the powertour was good. i'd like to go again, after a great day out at brands. lots of things to see, lots of racing, lots of everything really. price was a bit steep (£20), but it was forgivable.

i counted out the number of drivers i support, and it was daft, somewhere around 20 in about 10 different series, from big to small. i do only know 2 of them, and girlie moments account for about 6 or 7, but still.

promoting marshalling is difficult. you can't really go into a town and start promoting because people will not pay attention, they don't have the love of the sport to want to donate their time to help. in promoting it, you have to be careful. maybe it's down to an increased presence at races in terms of current or retired marshals manning an information point.

of course, going back to the spectator point, you forget just how accessible all the drivers are until you go to the good old monster that is f1. even f3000 is difficult. some of the drivers there are really very sweet indeed, and will talk to anything that moves that doesn't have a media pass and a tape recorder.

the powertour programme could do with a bit more shameless driver promotion. it's too small and too angled at making profit. if they lowered the quality of the paper, and focussed on having a little introduction to each driver with the emphasis on the personal aspect (eg favourite football team, that sort of thing), then you're more likely to get people who turn up, and start reading the program and think 'hey, he sounds sane, let's watch him for a bit'.

[Stephen Green]

Even the marshals can't gain access to the drivers at F1 races these days either and that's what is making more and more of them say they won't do GP's. The huge amount of time wasted at BTCC meetings has also taken it's toll on marshals.

On the point of recruitment. I have already suggested to the BRSCC that we should use race days at meetings such as Power Tour and BTCC to have a stand with all the relevant information to recruit new members. If people are attending a race meeting, it's fair to assume they have an interest in racing. Obviously this doesn't necessarily apply to those who are there courtesy of corporate hospitality!

Stephen.

[Tony Harman]

Lot of good stuff going on here. I've been club racing for a few years now, both as driver and spanner man so have seen a lot of changes.
My comments;
Marshalling - big problem - no marshals - no meeting - simple as that. I have huge respect for all you guys that put so much of your own time (and money) into the sport. How about this - MSA rule, every driver competing in 80% of a championship has to spend a day marshalling - I'm sure we'd learn a lot ! I have to be honest and say I keep meaning to put something back in and do some marshalling but the weekends between races always seem to get taken up with other stuff, a question of priorities I suppose, I have been a steward and pace car driver but never marshalled. A friend of mine won a sprint championship through marshalling, he couldn't get any more points by winning the last round because of dropped scores etc. but he would get 6 points for marshalling and they wouldn't count as a dropped round, clever huh !?

Championships; everyone seems to agree there are too many, the MSA have a plan to split club and professional level racing that will improve things but some formulae will suffer. Some interesting trends over the last few years have been a move toward more saloon / road car based championships and away from race cars, i.e. single seaters etc. Also people today have more expendeble income and a faster life style, hence they want to be able to buy a product and race it and not be the "impecunious amateur" that we used to find 15-20 years ago who would build race cars at home, this is one of the causes of the demise of 750m/c S2000 nee F1300 championship, there just aren't sufficient cars available. The Radicals are a good example of a buy and race product. I agree we have too many one make series, and that has been building since the early eighties, again the MSA are tightening up on that to ensure a manufacturer stays with the product for a minimum of 3 years but then what?
We will all defend our own series, and quite rightly. What counts is bums in seats, to make a formula break even on race day you need an average grid of 15 cars through the year, that means a pool of 40 cars registered for a championship, (these are actual statistics BTW)
This is the reason for the decision to axe 750m/c S2000, their average this year is 7 cars therefore the likes of Stock Hatch is financing the S2000 grid.
Another problem - Octagon & BMP - they want to make a profit - racing is expensive - so they promote the richest formula's and club racing suffers.
New drivers - we need to look at what formulae are attracting the new drivers, mainly the buy and race product which is why traditional race car formulae are suffering.

Bottom line - how do we fix it...?


Left space there for someone to answer it, 'cos I don't know !

Club racing will suffer over the next 5 years due to lack of purely club circuits like Lydden (got another year now I hear), the control of groups like Octagon and supply demand imbalance - too many formulae for number of drivers - something has to break.
One thing that does seem to work is the package idea, I'll try not to be too biased here but a good example is the BARC Classic package, people know what to expect, a variety of racing from different periods and a balanced mix of tin tops, Sports and racing cars.

Well said my bit, better go back to work now !!!
See you on the black stuff.

[Stephen Green]

Hi Tony,

On the subject of drivers doing some marshalling. I believe it's now a requirement for drivers to gain a National licence that they have to do one day marshalling, that counts as one signature on the licence.
Vis-a-vis Octagon et-al promoting races, I have suggested in the past that for circuits such as Brands (I use this as it's my home circuit), there are 4 major commercial radio stations that cover that particular area. Why not give the radio stations 250 complimentary tickets to use as prizes. A competition on the hour with the winner getting a pair of tickets to the next meeting.

As we both know, the organising club pays to hire the circuit, currently around £13,000 per day for a major venue, but the circuit keep 100% of the gate money. Brands Hatch etc have nothing to lose, in fact everything to gain, from giving out free tickets. First of all for every so many free tickets you give out you will sell extra tickets for friends or family members (I don't know what the formula is but you see what I mean). The people who have the consession for the catering stands benefit as there are more customers, and the circuit shops also benefit in the same way. I don't see how the circuit owners can lose personally?

In the longer term, some of those who 'win' tickets will want to come back again and see more motor racing. That's good for drivers as it gives them an audience to perform to (sorry about the perform bit) and it may help a little with obtaining sponsorship, if you are able to prove audience numbers etc.

Me thinks I should write to Rob Bain with my suggestion, maybe he will offer me a job?

Stephen.

[Marshal]

Another problem with Marshalling numbers is highlighted by the programme I've just been sent for the FIA Sprotscar World Cup meeting at Donnington on the 25/6th August.

The timetable for the Saturday runs from 9.00am to 7.30pm without a break. This mean leaving Bristol at 5.30am to get to sign on for 7.30am, and if everything goes to schedule () getting back home at 10pm. And then repeating it again on the Sunday, except we get a 20 min lunch break and finish at 6.30pm. I'm not going to go , even though BARC have offered £10 a day + a lunch box. Its not BARC's fault so they say, but promoter really need to be aware of what they are asking.

[Stephen Green]

I run a Yahoo club for marshals on the internet (let me know if you would like the address) and several of my members have said exactly the same thing about the Donington meeting.

When are these guys going to wake up to the fact that we are VOLUNTEERS and under normal circumstances do not get paid for our services. To ask men and women to start at 8.30am and finish at 7.30pm with virtually no break is not only stupid, but I suspect breaking all labour laws? That does not take into accound the tiredness that creaps in from standing for most of the day, normally in one spot, and the effect that will have on our reactions in the case of an emergency!

They also forget that we do have social lives outside of motor racing, along with wives/husbands etc all of whom get sick and tired of being left alone at weekends while we 'enjoy' ourselves. It has to be a very loving and patient partner to take the committment we give to the sport.

Stephen

[AndyF]

Good - Great new series like VW CUP
Bad - Not so great new series, like the Radicals (in my opinion). I should imagine that there are brilliant to drive, but to watch they are not so exciting.
Bad - The fact race lengths should be determined by the number of starters. The more cars - the more laps you do! I think that's a brilliant idea!

[SNH]

Club racers should do more to promote themselves & not leave it to Motorsport News & Autosport!

[Yimkin]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Hi Tony,

On the subject of drivers doing some marshalling. I believe it's now a requirement for drivers to gain a National licence that they have to do one day marshalling, that counts as one signature on the licence.

Stephen.

Its not a requirement, but it is an option. I nearly did it once when I really needed an upgrading signature, but it turns out that the marshalling counts as a signature in terms of getting rid of the novice cross, but not for upgrading.
Having said that, its not a bad idea to give drivers some idea of the scale of things involved in marshalling. One thing that did put me off however, was the worry that (as it was likely I'd only do it once) I'd get in the way of the real marshals and be a complete nuisance.....

[Stephen Green]

Well, I have had several drivers join my crew for a day and a signature, and not once have they got in the way. In fact, most of them have been very keen to help with the usual chores like sweeping the track etc. My own opinion is that it's a good idea as it does have the effect of uniting the two sides of the club members, the drivers and the marshals. Most of us marshals are frustrated racing drivers anyhow, so we welcome you any time you wish to join us!

[Peter Mallett]

For info, I've put a proposal concerning marshals to the CSCC committee. I won't go into details but I will tell you if anything positive comes out of it.

Stephen. You can post your website address if its relevant to the topic so please do so.

If I posted www.mallettracing.co.uk in this thread it would obviously not be relevant would it?

[Stephen Green]

Thanks Peter. I would be interested to see or hear of the proposals at some time if that's possible?

For anyone interested in marshals the site is:

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/themarshalsclub

Thanks for your help and advice as well...

Stephen