Formula 3 chassis for Monoposto

[schomosport]

I am considering building a 2000 class car for Monoposto using a Formula 3 chassis as a base. Hardly original, there's quite a few out there already, but I'm not quite sure what engines will fit in which chassis, and from the choice of engines available which would suffer a power deficit. Given the mono rules - iron block, free carbs or one of 3 different induction systems, rest of the lump pretty much standard the obvious candidates are:
Vauxhall XE
Ford Zetec
Toyota
Volkswagen
All are available in 16v form, I think any of the 8v engines can be discounted because they are too far down on power. However, many of the F3 chassis of the vintage within my budget (1980-1990) only ever saw action in that formula with 8 valves engines. So what engine fits what? Based on looking at what's out in the paddock I've got:
Ralt RT3 = Ford, Vauxhall
Ralt RT30 = VW, Toyota
Ralt RT35 = VW, not Vauxhall
Reynard 873,883,893 etc = VW, Vauxhall
Any combinations/engines I have missed?
Any of these engines at a relative disadvantage because within the limited scope of modifications available they simply don't make as much power as the others - I have a suspiscion that the VW doesn't quite cut it, also there's a Dallara Toyota pilot out there grumbling about lack of power, maybe he's just got a dud. All comments welcome. Yes,I know the FVL I've already got could be up the sharp end too if only it were driven properly but it ain't got the pedigree has it?

[Arty B]

Any thing will fit any thing if you are prepared to cut, shut and fabricate. If you are looking at 1980/1990 then Vauxhall is not a natural fit as thay did not come into F3 until after 1990. For an easy swap you need to be looking at VW or Toyota neither probably as good as a Vauxhall.

Even with the VW and Toyota I think there are mods to be made as the 8v and 16v engines have small differences. The VW for instance needs a small spacer between engine and box or the crank machined because the 16v tail is longer.

With the Toyota (hearsay this so could be wrong)I believe it is the MR2 engine you need and there is a problem using it inline which necessitates using a crank that is actually from an alloy blocked engine.

An engine never used is a Fiat. I know later than 1990 but there are Dallara Fiats about and I think that the road going 16v is iron block.

It is always cheaper to buy a complete car. There are some F3 cars on the Mono site.

[Lola]

I run a 16v VW in an 883. Your right about that spacer it took an entire day to work out why the gearbox wouldnt fit!!!
As for the VW not cutting it, it can be noted it has been a race winner this season in mono 2000 he he he
There is a Bowman F3 coming out next season in mono 2000 with a VW lump. Driven by a multiple champion (RT3 may be put out to grass). Plus Francis Phillips has dumped his Ford RS2000 engine in favour of a VW late on this season and been quick too.
The VW and Toyota may look slow but it may just be slow drivers or lack of development. But prob both

[gadgit]

Interesting subject this.

I would advise that you should buy a completed car(as Arty b)as fitting an engine to a car that it did not have from the start is a massive job. My car (RT30) had a vw 8v engine and has been changed to a Toyota MR2 / Celica.

The advantge of this is the power from the Toyota engine. The Toyota in its basic form from the car was about 162 BHP and with carbs and ignition change can get to around 190BHP with some tweeking.

problems you will encounter with this change is having to have parts made for the engine to fit and be held in the chassis. Also the rear suspention wishbones etc, may have to be bespoke and every time you go to an engineers workshop they seem to start at £200 !!!

The VW 16 valve engine has the head the other way round, so don't think you can just swap an 8 for a 16v as this is not a straight forward job, as most would all have done this if it was simple.

Dry sumping is very expensive to buy all the parts and have things altered.

But !! if you are a clever lad, and have some knowledge then it could be a great project. Time (and money) will be your enemy then as you will take twice as long to do all the work as you think you will. Do you want to spend months building the thing or not ?

Problem is, if you buy an engine, unless you buy a reconditioned one, you will need to strip it and check everything. do you want to spend all that effort and then take the engine out after a couple of runs because it went west?
you would be far happier if you rebuilt a complete car, as everything would be there to work on and see where you are going.
The chap I bought the car off said he nearly spent all the money he sold it to me for in the rebuild so I still think buying a good one from the start is better.At least you have a chance to get some of your investment back if you want to change it.
If you are anywhere Brands Hatch this Saturday, there is a race car show on which is free for race licence holders and £10 for others. I will be there with the Monoposto stand, Garage 24 and there should be a wealth of advice for anyone in your position !

RACE CAR LIVE ! this SAT !!

Good luck in your adventure.

Gadgit.

[schomosport]

Thanks for the input folks. I have some Mono 2000 experience having intermittently campaigned my FVL for the last three seasons. I also have a pretty good idea of what's up for sale and how much it costs.

Gadgit, if you manged to buy a car for what the owner had just spent on it then believe me you really got a bargain. Actually, you got a free car. Jolly good luck to you, but believe me, that kind of deal doesn't come a long that often!

I am not aware of any Mono-ready F3 cars out there for less than £10k that don't need a fair chunk more spending on them. I also understand the cost of specialised engineering facilities. Gadgit, if you haven't already done so, price yourself a gearbox overhaul if you think racing bits are expensive.

Actually, I'm trying to emulate Gadgit - find some mug to recondition the car for me and then get it at a bargain price. Unfortuneately, I'm not aware of any Mono-ready F3 cars out there for less than £10k that don't need already a fair chunk more spending on them. Hence my reason for looking at the availability of F3 cars and the possibilities of converting them. Just don't want to pick the wrong combination and disappear up a blind alley (again!).

Sorry Lola, my memory banks attributed the 'VW not as quick as Vauxhall' bit to you. Must have been thinking of someone else. I have a soft spot for the VW lump from my years with a 16v Jetta but certainly in the Toyo days we always felt the VW was a bit down on the Astra when using standard based fuel injection. Maybe not so with Webers?