Performance Diesel/AF Engine?

[littlefarny]

Discounting the R10's tech for the minute, are there any high-performance diesel/alternative fuel engines that would perform well and fit within a single seater chassis?
e.g. a FR2.0 chassis or similar.

And could you provide me with some links/specs?

Governments around the world are pushing this type of tech for motorsport, and AFAIK there aren't any series with this as their main fuel type, and with the general abundance of single seater formulae at any level, the development of a AF series could be quite lucrative.

Thanks,

Steve

[Al Weyman]

Why the push for Diesel, I think they are more environmentally unfriendly than petrol myself. I think alternate renewable fuels developed for existing petrol engines would be the way to go and maybe F1 should start the ball rolling as a high profile example. As it is you have the MSA's 'Roadside pump fuel' mandate that precludes experimentaton with alternate fuels at club level, surely that should be looked at again in light of the green lobby pressure.

[littlefarny]

I didn't know the MSA had that rule, that seems pretty bad with the green push starting to happen.

More thinking on this one, but from your comment and the general concensus, an AF would be the better way to go.
They work in sportscars (LeMans and recently the BTCC), but would they neccesarily work effectively at single-seater level?

[Al Weyman]

In fairness to MSA I think if SR's allow it then other fuels can be used but not in general.

[ss_collins]

I think the MSA are looking at it very hard.

The VW 'pumper' diesels could be very good.

[R59]

Now that it's out in the open, look at E85 which is 85% bio-ethanol, 15% U/L Petrol. Saab have the 9-5 "tuned" (a special version) to run on it, and you just need to built your engine to run on alcohol fuels. It's cheaper than unleaded (by just a little bit at the moment, but could be up to 12p/L cheaper if they get production costs down).

Points to watch out for on alcohol fuels.

It'll need up to 2.2 times as much alcohol compared to petrol.
It washes the bores quite well!
It'll eat lots of ordinary plastics/rubbers that petrol doesn't.
When it burns, you don't see the flame, it's almost clear.
If it burns, put it out with water (same rule, if you spill it)
Don't drink it unless your name is Clampitt.
Your radiator will need to be smaller.
You may not need an oil cooler.
You'll need a bigger fuel tank (that doesn't get eaten by ethanol)
and a few other issues which are not really issues like different cam profiles as it burns slower, etc...

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

12p a litre less but uses 2.2 times more, doesn't sound particularly green or kind to the wallet to me!

[R59]

In a road engine, it's a little more thirsty, not 2.2times more. It's just that you can get away with much "thicker" mixes with alcohol, which is where the power is at. E85 has an octane rating of circa 102-105, where pure alcohol is probably 115plus (someone will be bound to have the accurate figures)

[R59]

Oh, and green - as it's bio-ethanol, plants are not that efficient at turning carbon dioxide from the atmosphere into "fuel", so they 'eat' more than they store, so for the environment, there is the benefit of a net reduction in atmospheric co2 levels.

Have you seen the bio-power Saab? When running on E85, it turns out 20% more power than on regular unleaded. That will probably be the car's biggest selling point. Something that "just runs" on E85 won't be that attractive, but something that runs on E85, and goes better on it, will sell to the sales reps.

[Mackmot]

It does make me laugh that the 'greens' generally cant get terminology right. Green fuel does not exist, except with solar panels. Electric cars are not green they use electricity that is made from our power stations that run on gas or coal and have about 33% efficiency from fuel to plug socket (then there are losses in the car itself). Fuel cells are made from hydrogen that is made in an electrolytic way that is about 20% efficient from fuel to hydrogen storage)

Renewable fuels aren't green, they are economically useful. As our oil supplies run out if we can change the fuel usage to renewables then our economies will be safer and we will hopefully not crash into despair

I think renewables have been given the 'green' image because governments are desparate to make us make the transition. People dont seem to respond to imminent economic crisis but mention global warming and it gets a reaction.

To be honest I wholeheartedly support renewables I think motorsport is going to do a lot for the world in the next few years.

[R59]

Renewables like bio-ethanol, or bio-diesel, if used in preference to mineral based oils would lead to a net reduction in atmospheric co2 levels, therefore in that sense they are "green" per se.

There are other benefits of bio-fuels, spills can be washed away with water, leaks into water courses in small quantities are not too harmful to the evironment. Austria leads the way for renewables in public transport, Sweden is pretty close behind.

Motorsport, as you say, could do a lot for the world by showing how "good" th fuels can be.

[Notso Swift]

Today the FIA/WMSC has announced that they will be encouraging the development of Bio-fuels ASAP for WRC
http://www.wrc.com/page/News/Breakin...855974,00.html

[Al Weyman]

Make everyone run on hard road rubber as well, no problem if everyone is in the same boat, I would imagine the amount of slicks got through in some forms of the sport is very un-green.

[Chris Griffin]

Would it be inappropriate to talk about Drifting in this thread?

Formula Talbot was a short lived single seater championship in the 80s that ran on a veg based fuel. Lovely smell!

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Make everyone run on hard road rubber as well, no problem if everyone is in the same boat.....

In one of the series run by our club, they have done exactly that.... and quite a few competitors have pulled out because they aren't prepared to go 10 seconds a lap slower, even if everyone else is in the same boat

[knighty]

Originally Posted by littlefarny

Discounting the R10's tech for the minute, are there any high-performance diesel/alternative fuel engines that would perform well and fit within a single seater chassis?
e.g. a FR2.0 chassis or similar.

And could you provide me with some links/specs?

Governments around the world are pushing this type of tech for motorsport, and AFAIK there aren't any series with this as their main fuel type, and with the general abundance of single seater formulae at any level, the development of a AF series could be quite lucrative.

Thanks,

Steve

In response to the original question, I would try to keep the weight less than a 1.8 Zetec FF motor, which is about 130Kg from memory......learning from the lessons of the conversion from the 8 valve Kent 1600 X-flow........to the heavy 1.8 16v Zetec formula fords, whereby the head weighed a ton and caused the chassis to handle like a boat...........I would try to chose something with a lightweight cylinder head - I know the Ford Puma 2.0/2.2/2.4 head weighs a ton........but I remember the vauxhall head was 16v, but it only had 1 camshaft operating valve bridges, and it looked a real neat and lightweight layout........as for the block, if its ali dont assume it will be lighter - as thats not often the case.

I think there are a few diesels that would do the job well, in standard form the new BMW 4cylinder 2.0L engine is giving 150bhp and 245lb/ft of torque......Vauxhall and Ford now both supply 150bhp motors, but they are 2.2L engines, but either will still do the job quite well in a single seater....but the 2.0/2.2 motors might be a bit heavy.......obviously a ford/vaux motor will be plentiful and cheap....

if you wanted more power I dare say a new set of higher flowing injector nozzles and higher rail pressure could easily put it into 200bhp.......but that would need doing on a dyno and properly mapping - and even then I bet it will produce load of black smoke which is not good - its not allowed at lemans and I dare say the rest of the motorsport regulations will be adjusted soon

I dare say someone like superchips already does an upgrade chip for another 20bhp....but like I say watch out for black smoke (unburnt fuel)....I think the biggest problem in a single seater would be installing a big enough intercooler, as when chasing power in a turbo diesel a cool intake charge is a bit of a basic requirement for good cylinder filling..........but in short, it sounds quite do-able

steer clear of mechanical fuel injection systems - electrically controlled common-rail injectors are now the way forward - mechanical injection will be a pain to tune properly

if the 2.0/2.2 engines are still too big or heavy for a single seater I would look at the Ford TDCI 1.6 which is an alloy block and alloy head and will be great in the back of a single seater, it only has about 80bhp as standard......but thats not the point, it will have about 50% torque more torque than its petrol equivalent.......100bhp per litre is quite do-able for a diesel, therefore 160bhp is realistic - but it will cost you for the development - and will probably produce black smoke.......therefore you will need to package a particulate filter which is about the size of a normal single seater silencer - not a big deal though

not many diesels rev more than 5000rpm.......peak power is always delivered at about 2500 to 3000 rpm, so you would need to take that into account with the gearing selection

Ok I'm gonna come clean now........I design diesel engines for a living, and used to race a bike engined single seater in 750-F4, if your seriously considering doing the conversion, let me know as it sounds a very interesting project to be involved with - to my knowledge I dont think its been done yet!

hope that helps

[R59]

The VW 1.9TDi lump is pretty tidy too. The new 2L TDi turns out 170bhp std in the Golf GT TDi, and can be chipped to well in excess of 200bhp.

As for the gearbox in race trim, since most of these cars now run 6 speed close ratio gearboxes to keep them on the boil, it could make the choice of transaxle interesting, though with the far lighter weight of the car, should allow the use of wider ratios.

If it's any consolation, the Ford 2L TDCi rated at 147bhp, in a Focus Estate goes like...... 1000rpm=40mph, 2600rpm=100mph (indicated), revs to about 4200.

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

And sounds like a ruddy taxi, I was only listening to one myself tonight ticking over, horrible clatter I thought they had cured that.

[R59]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

And sounds like a ruddy taxi, I was only listening to one myself tonight ticking over, horrible clatter I thought they had cured that.

Was that a 2L TCDI or the 1.6 ot 1.8 which sound more tractor like.

When you're inside the cabin, you don't notice what it sounds like, just that the speedo rises rather rapidly (if you keep your eye on the revs and don't go past peak torque too much) for a vehicle of it's genre.

Didn't westfield do a weasel powered 7 type car some years back?

Rob.

[littlefarny]

Originally Posted by knighty

All very good information that I've read but thought to be a bit long to quote!

Thanks for the info! All very good, and very interesting to read!
Currently I don't have a car on which to run this idea through, I've just started at Uni, but I really love the conceptual idea of designing a racing car, so I'm always trying to run with ideas and mull things over!

The increase in torque from a diesel would be interesting to see in a race series, as that low-end grunt would be perfect for overtaking in a slow section of track coming out of a corner, but would be tricky to handle on longer straights when you're screaming for power...

I think that trying to shoe-horn the Ford 1.6 you mentioned into a Speads RM06 or similar would be interesting from a single-seater perspective.

Dyno-ing and engine remapping seems to be becoming a more common thing among cars in the tuning scene, and with that more places are opening to do it, thus costs drop on that side of development (he says hoping-ly), so a chip and new nozzles could be incorporated *relatively* easily from a physical perspective.

Some good ideas for me to think about!
Diesel engine development seems to be the 'new' thing so its a good place for you to be right now, huh?

[Speedy1]

why not run natural gas? very low emissions. no particulate.
decent / reasonable energy density.
for club racing a single fuel load is enough.
for the 500 mile cars, have a properly designed quick change to replace the entire fuel cell during pit stops.
as part of a electric motorsport racing team, we changed the heavy lead battery pack in 8 seconds, every 30 laps (miles) averaging 100 mph.
motorsport guys are problem solvers ... put them on the job ...
before the tree huggers force it!

[Notso Swift]

There was a LPG production car running 10+ years ago in Aus with a high pressure dry break coupling for refueling in pitstops. Come in unplug the tank, unbolt it(also QR) and plug the new one in. Ran twice at the Bathurst 12 hour, Mal Rose IIRC.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Speedy1

why not run natural gas? very low emissions. no particulate.
decent / reasonable energy density.
for club racing a single fuel load is enough.
for the 500 mile cars, have a properly designed quick change to replace the entire fuel cell during pit stops.
as part of a electric motorsport racing team, we changed the heavy lead battery pack in 8 seconds, every 30 laps (miles) averaging 100 mph.
motorsport guys are problem solvers ... put them on the job ...
before the tree huggers force it!

In theroy it is a great idea. IIRC rules making bodies would like to control the fuel or have a ruling on what fuel competitors may use. To some what balance the cars.

[Speedy1]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

In theroy it is a great idea. IIRC rules making bodies would like to control the fuel or have a ruling on what fuel competitors may use. To some what balance the cars.

by this logic natural gas makes even more sense
how could it be tampered or modified?
and then if the rule spec fuel truck was the only supplier ....


a fun innovative race series that supplies the same energy source to all entrants: Electrathon www.electrathonamerica.org
the idea is to see who goes furthest on one supplied battery for one hour
design rules are simple
most are in the 35 mile range
record is over 50 miles

not same as 500 horsepower .....

[AU N EGL]

I will take the 500+ HP any time.