MotoGP's Sad State...

[Dragger]

MotoGP has been losing it's appeal. I've been watching 500/MotoGP since the late 80's and for the 1st time, I put Indycar and F1 before MotoGP.

Most the sponsors are Spanish and they only want Spanish riders(ignorance), Spain gets more than twice as many races than any other country, end result is it becomes the Spanish Cup.

Rossi has lost his dominant Champion status, age and possibly the loss of his friend Marco have taken his sharp edge, so he's no longer competitive.

Marco passed away, loss of a future Champ(RIP, you are severely missed).

Stoner, the best current rider retired in his prime, that says a lot about the sad condition of MotoGP, when your best rider would rather sit at home than compete in the series.

Ducati, ruining careers left and right with no end in sight.

Aprilia, Kawasaki, and Suzuki have all dropped out. FIM have resorted to creating the CRT class as grid filler. Pathetic.

MotoGP has become an empty hollow shell of it's former self. Disappointed.

[Dragger]

And THEN we have the Australian GP debacle. One of the best tracks of the year, forcing a required bike change mid-race because the spec tire manufacturer can't test and/or provide a proper tire, changed the rules for the race the day before, again the night before, AGAIN shortly before the race. Then disqualifying a rider just to tighten the points race... Stupid.

They need to introduce a spec ECU and ban trac control/launch control/wheelie control. They need to work on gaining sponsors and riders from around the world, this is supposed to be an INternational series again. They need to work on getting Stoner and the other manufacturers back. And ditch CRT, one class only.

[chunder]

Sorry fella I agree with every word, but I am afraid the manufacturers will all quit if you take away their beloved electronics.

I say let them. But there is no way it can happen.

The Spanish thing there is nothing you can do about, they are the only country who have completely invested in GP racing, mainly because it is run there, largely financed there and governed there.

Ezpeleta says he want more countries involved, but is largely responsible.

You have to look back a few years to understand the tyre thing and the current state of affairs, the 800's were forced in by people to slow the bikes down, it had the opposite effect, corner speeds gre aided by vast investment in electronics. Tyre edge grip replaced the need for tyre endurance, and one make came in, this tyre has largely been responsible for the ruining of the sport as you have to make your bike around it, it is largely why Kawasaki and Suzuki left as they couldn't afford to keep redesigning the bike around the tyre Bridgestone made.

Its a sad fact but the lower classes now are much more interesting, its been the case in Superbikes for 6 years too

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by chunder

Sorry fella I agree with every word, but I am afraid the manufacturers will all quit if you take away their beloved electronics.

I say let them. But there is no way it can happen.

The Spanish thing there is nothing you can do about, they are the only country who have completely invested in GP racing, mainly because it is run there, largely financed there and governed there.

Ezpeleta says he want more countries involved, but is largely responsible.

You have to look back a few years to understand the tyre thing and the current state of affairs, the 800's were forced in by people to slow the bikes down, it had the opposite effect, corner speeds gre aided by vast investment in electronics. Tyre edge grip replaced the need for tyre endurance, and one make came in, this tyre has largely been responsible for the ruining of the sport as you have to make your bike around it, it is largely why Kawasaki and Suzuki left as they couldn't afford to keep redesigning the bike around the tyre Bridgestone made.

Its a sad fact but the lower classes now are much more interesting, its been the case in Superbikes for 6 years too

Great points.

I never understood the change to 800cc. Before the season started everyone knew it would have some effect in reducing the straightaway speeds while increasing corner speed a bit... but how often to bikes crash on the straights?!?! 99% of crashes happen around a corner. What were they thinking?

And I agree, cut the electronics, let the manufacturers leave, they'll come back. Besides, there's only 3 left, and one is stuck mid-pack.

[ArnageWRC]

And everytime there is a F1 blog on the Guardian website; the 'know it alls' all claim that MotoGP is miles better. I'm sorry, but it isn't anymore.

Only 2 Manufacturers can win, and really 3 riders.

It's like the WRC from 3-4 years ago; Ford v Citroen with Subaru struggling to regain their glory years; just substitute Yamaha v Honda with Ducati in the Subaru role.

Why aren't Suzuki(except they're coming back), Kawasaki, Aprilia, BMW, KTM, etc interested??

[chunder]

Dumb ideas all, probably pushed through at the tiem by Honda as they were getting beat every week! So hilarious when Casey mullered everyone in 07.

GP is in a tough place, its so expensive. Ezpeleta is trying to do the right thing with CRT, but lets face it, someone like Alex Lowes could beat most of them on a BSB Honda

Its going to be a tough few years, Marquez is going to dominate, viewing figures over ehre are going to fall dramatically as it is only going to be on BT Sport and if you haven't got it, you aint going to subscribe just to get that!

Suzuki are coming back, and I think BMW will soon. But KTM are never going to, Aprilia are coming into it abit next year, but are struggling financially as Piaggio.

Kawasaki, no chance, when they are dominating WSB, (albeit in another dying series)

The economy in Japan is tough, teams don't have anty money and most of it is financed elsewhere, how on earth Spain are able to put so much into GP Lord knows.

[Dragger]

I have no idea how, or why Spain is putting so much money into MotoGP. They have brand new multi-million dollar airports closed down, entire new highways vacant, towns full of houses and apartments empty, insanely high unemployment, economy is tanked like The Great Depression... yet people have money to watch prototype MotoGP racing at 4-5 different tracks across the country???

[gossie]

I have to say I just enjoy it regardless of all the negatives.
If we got the Superbikes here on our free to air TV I'd be watching that too.

[chunder]

I don't the fans have that much money.

There was absolutely no one at the superbike race at Jerez, and hardly any go to Aragon which is in the middle of nowhere, I know as I have been past it, think Nevada or Black Rock and you are about close!

It is just the way it has ended up. Since the early 90's Spain has invested millions into bike racing, with the Ducados series, and latterly the Telefonica Movistar series that gave us Pedrosa, Elias and Olive.

Bradley Smith, Stoner, Redding et all would be nowhere without Spanish money sadly and in all honesty you cant blame them for being so utterly unmoved by their own domination.

they are consistently the only country to have given a damn for years. it used to be Italy and Japan, now it is Spain.

Makes it boring really, but as I say next year it wont matter as much as hardly anyone over here will be watching!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by gossie

I have to say I just enjoy it regardless of all the negatives.

Me too!

There's been some great races this year. I couldn't care less what nationality the riders are, who funds them or what bikes they are riding.

Yes, the OZ GP was a bit of a farce, but these things happen. I did think exclusion was too harsh a penalty for Marquez - a ridethrough would have been more appropriate to the "crime".

[Mike E]

I'm sure they were well aware that exclusion was the punishment for not pitting on lap 9 or 10, and rightly so. The pit stop was enforced on safety grounds so giving the teams the 'option' of ignoring the pit window if it suited them tactically was never going to happen.
Did you see Marquez's rear tyre after the race? Big chunks missing.
Back on topic, I have enjoyed the racing this year but won't be signing up for BT Sport, or BT anything, any time soon.

[chunder]

It is going to be a divisive issue over here. the tv deal.

A hell of a lot of fans are not even in a situation where they can switch, and even if they do they have to pay for the channel.

And lets face it, most bike racing fans are not football fans, and that is what you are paying 15 quid a month for, not MotoGP

Remains to be seen if there is a free to air highlights shows on offer, there doesn't seem to be sadly.

So it will be streaming from some rubbish Latvian host site no doubt!

[v8rob]

Didn't realise bt sport had the rights next year, must admit even now although its live on bbc and delayed on eurosport I allways wait to watch it on eurosport, don't like the commentators on bbc!!, I have got bbc sport at the minute as it was part of the sky hd package but not watched it once due to it being a football channel!, I do enjoy watching moto gp, been to see them live a few times, as for it being in a decline, I guess that is more a case of the manufactures in decline and just cant justify the costs, same with most motorsport, too get more manufactures involved you need to cap the yearly cost, Suzuki are not going to come back if they have a budget of say 1 million when Honda can run to 10 million, and if you cant compete it can make the company look even worse in the main stream than it actually is!! give each team a budget of a said amount and you will get a lot more manufactures competing,

[chunder]

Suzuki were supposed to be coming abck in 2014, but for some reason delayed it another year.

The bike is very quick, de Puniet has been riding it, and has been on the pace on it in testing, and considering he has not had a great year, if you put a Rossi on it I reckon you might get somewhere

Personally would love to see Valentino go to a bike like that and have one final year of getting it right, but cant see it

[v8rob]

again probably down to costs, it must be way cheaper to develop a bike/car in testing as apposed to the big budget you need to go racing and testing, I must admit I am a rossi fan through and through and so is my partner and 5 year old daughter!!, but his day has been done, still a fantastic rider but cant compete with the younger guys now

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by chunder

The Spanish thing there is nothing you can do about, they are the only country who have completely invested in GP racing, mainly because it is run there, largely financed there and governed there.

Wasnt there some talk a while back that Mr Ecclestone was interested in including the premier bike series with the F1 group?

Would that make things change for the better?

Bikes cant be that important in world motorsport or Red Bull would have brought in its own CRT, designed by NASA (or Adrian Newey... same thing ) and blown away the field...



The days of Gardner, Doohan, Mamola, Schwantz, Rainey, Spencer on different commercially backed brands, each winning when they could, muscling one another... you could watch a 500 race and not know who would win till the last lap.. and then only as they crossed the line..

How do we get back to that? Is it dead because all the big spending ciggie brands are gone and they didnt care (nationality wise..) who was aboard?

[chunder]

For me the only way to make things better initially is to make the bikes simpler.

The manufacturers want all the complex electronics on the bikes as they use it all for R&D. It is how they get the budget and how they can then market the product.

I heard an advert today with sell out David Croft telling me all the tech that goes into a Re Bull goes into a Renault diesel van too! See... Load of rubbish but Renault think we are stupid so what the hell.

The manufacturers are not interest in a show, they are only interested in winning and selling bikes, fact.

The tv companies want a show to sell advertising, as does the series promoter to sell tickets at each track.

Who calls the shots then? You tell me, but in F1 Bernie has pretty much called them for years as he holds the rights, they don't mean as much in MotoGP as we have seen.

My idea would be to have a control ECU, ban TC, wheelie control, fly by wire throttles, Bring in ABS as that is safe, let them use seamless shift as that's fair enough.

No launch control, where is the skill in simply letting go of the clutch!

If you make the bikes simpler the budget is lower, or maybe even force a budget cap, though as we have seen in football here, that's impossible as they sponsor the training kit for 20 million or the stadium for 70 million.

It needs looking at, if for no other reason tohan to make people want to watch it again.

I see posts all the time in Autosport forum about how many people are stopping watching F1 to watch GP, and I think "jeez you should have been here when it was good!, its nothing like as good now"

[wnut]

Originally Posted by gossie

I have to say I just enjoy it regardless of all the negatives.
If we got the Superbikes here on our free to air TV I'd be watching that too.

Me too, to both of these, sadly miss superbikes, NBA, but I will not pay the evil empire on principle!

[canamman]

I am starting to get a little concerned about Moto2.
Is it common to have these big shunts or is just an anomaly?
Love the bike count just not the carnage.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Wasnt there some talk a while back that Mr Ecclestone was interested in including the premier bike series with the F1 group?

Would that make things change for the better?

Bikes cant be that important in world motorsport or Red Bull would have brought in its own CRT, designed by NASA (or Adrian Newey... same thing ) and blown away the field...



The days of Gardner, Doohan, Mamola, Schwantz, Rainey, Spencer on different commercially backed brands, each winning when they could, muscling one another... you could watch a 500 race and not know who would win till the last lap.. and then only as they crossed the line..

How do we get back to that? Is it dead because all the big spending ciggie brands are gone and they didnt care (nationality wise..) who was aboard?

If you want to get back to the good old days, we have to start by replacing the electronics with balls.

Go to spec ECU, no trac control, no wheelie control, no launch control, just a big pair against the tank. Let them keep 1000cc's of 250 HP, reduce the races by a few laps for tire longevity, make it a dual sprint race format. It'll reduce costs and other manufacturers will be able to compete for wins again. THAT's excitement.

[chunder]

Im with you there dragger

Its what me and my friends have been saying for years, 2 race format works in many ways.

For tracks you could have a race Saturday maybe increase the ticket price too.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by chunder

Im with you there dragger

Its what me and my friends have been saying for years, 2 race format works in many ways.

For tracks you could have a race Saturday maybe increase the ticket price too.

It's one thing I love about WSBK racing. As soon as the race is over... there's another one!

As is the teams travel around the world, we wait a few weeks sometimes, for a single sprint race. And if your favorite rider goes down, wait another week or three for another short little race.

[Jeff 8]

Those who talk of the glory days of Rainey-Doohan-Schwantz and want to rid modern GP bikes of electronic aids must have a poor memory. The racing was great in that era, but the injuries were horrendous. They would win championships by missing the least races due to injury. Electronics are here, face it, do you want them to use a Lucas magneto? To remove the traction control from MotoGP, they would be slower than Superbikes, which have, guess what? Traction Control. The racing has always been about the top three, rarely has there been more, sometimes there has been less, the late Doohan era, the mid Rossi era, Ago after the other works teams withdrew.

I think the racing at the front is great. More depth would be good, but it won't make me stop watching it.

On the Phillip Island fiasco, I think Bridgestone should be punished, perhaps the riders refuse to wear their hats for a round. It won't happen as Bridgestone are commercial partners of Dorna.

Jeff

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Jeff 8

Those who talk of the glory days of Rainey-Doohan-Schwantz and want to rid modern GP bikes of electronic aids must have a poor memory. The racing was great in that era, but the injuries were horrendous. They would win championships by missing the least races due to injury. Electronics are here, face it, do you want them to use a Lucas magneto? To remove the traction control from MotoGP, they would be slower than Superbikes, which have, guess what? Traction Control. The racing has always been about the top three, rarely has there been more, sometimes there has been less, the late Doohan era, the mid Rossi era, Ago after the other works teams withdrew.

I think the racing at the front is great. More depth would be good, but it won't make me stop watching it.

On the Phillip Island fiasco, I think Bridgestone should be punished, perhaps the riders refuse to wear their hats for a round. It won't happen as Bridgestone are commercial partners of Dorna.

Jeff

The 500 era was plagued by numerous injuries due to several variables, lack of electronics wasn't one of them.

The #1 reason was that the engines were crude 190HP 2-Strokes. The torque curve wasn't broad and smooth like a 4-Stroke. There was nothing nothing nothing then BOOM! Almost everything the engine made in one massive stroke. Exiting the corner with that spike and you either bogged off the corner, launched off the corner, or launched into the air.

#2 was the chassis development. Chassis used to be pretty weak and wobbly. Chassis tuning was still pretty crude, it was believed that stiffer was better, the chassis became entirely too rigid and stiff, turns out that isn't the best case. It made the bikes extremely unforgivable.

#3 was the tires. Power increased between 1980 to 1995 far faster than tire tech could keep up.

Combine all three of these variables at once and it was a recipe for crashes. The 500cc bikes in the 80's and 90's were absolute viscious beasts that were trying to kill you.

Eliminating trac control today with flat torque curves, properly tuned chassis, and modern tires will not result in the multiple 3 story highsides in every session of decades past. Will there be crashes? Of course, always will be in motosports. Just ask Ben Spies and John Hopkins, both careers ended during the electronic age. Even WITH trac-control riders of today still lose Championship points, Championships, their careers, and even worse...

[chunder]

Spot on dragger, you sound like a kindred spirit on here for me, and that is rare I tell you!

Back in the late 80's you had to prove yourself to get the best tyres, Michelin only gave one set of super tyres to 4 riders, usually Kevin, Lawson, Doohan and or someone else, usually Mackenzie or Gardner or the other Yam, its why Suzuki and Roberts eventually tried Dunlops in 90.

The bikes were 2 stroke then obviously, hair trigger throttle response, tyres that were good but were coming from an age where corner speed was king like now, and were trying to cope suddenly with a 170hp NSR not a 130hp RG500 on crossplies!

The reason the guys got injured more is simple, there was a clear talent pool and a lot of riders in it. They were all pushing like mad, far more than they do now in my opinion. As they really were on a tightrope back then. Every one of them was seriously injured once, even Lawson, but only when his career was pretty much over.

Put simply, the bikes were harder to ride, which if as a fan you understood and realised, made these guys total Gods to us mortals. As they rode on the limit and pushed each other.

Rossi knows it, Roberts knows it, watch the interviews Spies did with Lawson in 2010, you will see those guys realise it.

The racing wasn't any better, but you could SEE who was the best, you could hear it, and you could touch it.

Now, all you hear is a load of staggered throttle and cutout, sorry you might call it progress, but F1 managed to do away with it.

And regarding Superbikes, there are no more injuries in BSB now than years ago and we haven't run TC for 3 years, and some of our bikes are WSB spec.