The "development" of Historic Racing Cars discussion Post Spa 6Hrs 2013.

[grantp]

The more one thinks about it the more one surely comes to the conclusion that few non-club racer owned cars out there in Times Historique stayed the same for more than a meeting or two at a time. Maybe only a race or two.

Most F1 cars had quite significant alterations between races and the same will have trickled down through the professional and semi-professional plateaus.

There were a few pre-war and the odd post war racer at Angouléme last weekend that had a patina suggesting the age of decades. Whether that would have been true under the metal skins one would have to doubt. Most regularly run Historic cars probably do far more in a season now than they would ever have been asked to do in a working life in period. Things move on. Not necessarily for better or worse. They just move on.

Maybe there are certain clearly controllable and well defined classic configurations that can be fully monitored but in the main and on balance is is probably better to have a few people spending a fortune to gain a second here and there sometimes than it is to have cars in invisible storage locations.

But in the end it is all a game for the competitors and the spectators and other interested parties, whether one or two bus loads strong, will have no voice and probably would not warrant one.

[Peter Mallett]

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! Agreed, everyone moans about development but if you can use unobtainium to make your pistons and those pistons are the correct size, then I guess there's nothing anyone can do about it. If however your pistons are oversized then it isn't development, it's cheating which is the difference in my opinion. Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[John Turner]

A few examples of the subject being discussed if you wish to wade through them. The first post below was my attempt to categorise:-


http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....7&postcount=79

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ne+sand&page=2

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ight=Line+sand

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ight=Line+sand

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ight=Line+sand

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ight=Line+sand

[terence]

Interesting to see those post's going back to around 2007 John,some questions arise. Apart from Marsters making a stand against MGBs a few years ago,JH telling the seven B owners at Silverstone that if they went out and qualified,the heads would be removed,what else has been done? Any reaction from the MSA/FIA on virtually all makes and types of competing cars?MGBs that do Spa in 3:05s ARE BENT,organisers ever had a head off to find out why? Does anyone actually care as long as the grids are full?
Jeremy Halls words during a conversation concerning a car we,CMS,were building come back to me," Forget Historic Racing Terry,its ****ed and wont be anything like it should be in ten years time"-that leaves four years to go then!

[Dinkel]

http://www.sportscardigest.com/cars-...otus-elan-26r/

Good points there about the Elan: us mere mortals (well, me being a non-racer), what do we know? And with a four box, OK. Happy with these facts. Over to real life no. Sorry for this hot balloon. Please slap me for it if it is necessary: I'm just a peeping guest here.

[John Turner]

No problems, Dinkel; you merely asked the question!

[john ruston]

Clive Brown You have hit the nail on the head.

It may annoy Mr Mallet but the continued arms race in all forms of historic circuit racing will kill the pastime.

Check the lap times of two of the best drivers in historic racing a certain Mr Hadfield and his no1 sidekick Michael Schryver from a few years ago in 6 hr race and lap times now.

An Élan from any period should not be as quick as a sports racer.

[john ruston]

By the way Messrs H and S used a 26 R.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Clive Brown You have hit the nail on the head.

It may annoy Mr Mallet but the continued arms race in all forms of historic circuit racing will kill the pastime.

Check the lap times of two of the best drivers in historic racing a certain Mr Hadfield and his no1 sidekick Michael Schryver from a few years ago in 6 hr race and lap times now.

An Élan from any period should not be as quick as a sports racer.

Not annoyed John, just not on topic and as JT says the discussion has been and will continue to be, had. Just try not to bring it up here.

[john ruston]

Why?

The reduction in lap times in the 6 hrs will eventually ruin what is the most exciting race in Historic Racing.

The arms race at front end of grid is nonsense .

If people want to spend that type of money on a old farts race why not do moderns to
Show you cannot or can succeed .
Bit like kicking you grandad.

[Peter Mallett]

John,

I agree with you, just think we've done it to death and nothing changes. So I'll hive these posts out and set up a new thread.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by john ruston

the continued arms race in all forms of historic circuit racing will kill the pastime.

Originally Posted by john ruston

The reduction in lap times in the 6 hrs will eventually ruin what is the most exciting race in Historic Racing.

The arms race at front end of grid is nonsense .

I know this sounds like a bit of a plug (which it is I guess) and we are not alone, but FISCAR are trying to stem that flow in our area of racing. Given that it one of the cornerstones of our club, it nevertheless remains pretty difficult getting the cars to come out on a consistent or regular basis because there are so many clashes of meetings. Owners still prefer to go to the bigger meetings with all the attached kudos whether or not they are on an even playing field.

[Peter Mallett]

As I said I agree with John R that an arms race is not good for anyone. But there may be another issue here. Use of better materials than were available in period may be a cheaper solution and also mean the cars remain on track longer. Trying to source or re manufacture original spec components can be prohibitively expensive and if you don't have the means to do it yourself, you have to pay someone. In turn the costs become prohibitive anyway. A self fulfilling prophesy which ultimately would lead to many people giving up.

Then when an organiser such as Masters announces that entrants can replace old style ignition with electronic, thus permitting the use of rev limiters, the purists among us get aeriated. Yet this is one relatively cheap way of making sure the cars remain on the grids.

Personally I don't advocate the constant development of the cars, but development isn't cheating unless the components used change the characteristics of the car either dynamically or dimensionally (oversized engines etc.).

But ultimately, if we the competitors think someone is cheating then its pointless moaning on here, we should protest the vehicle in question.

As to whether a car is historic or not? This surely depends on its provenance. Then again many of our famous historic racing cars no doubt have an element of "Grandfather's watch" in them.

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Why?

The reduction in lap times in the 6 hrs will eventually ruin what is the most exciting race in Historic Racing.

The arms race at front end of grid is nonsense .

If people want to spend that type of money on a old farts race why not do moderns to
Show you cannot or can succeed .
Bit like kicking you grandad.

Totally agree and precisely my point John.I also agree with Clives points,the owners of these various cars are killing the Historic in Historic Racing-for what purpose? Sheer stupidity comes to mind!

[FastDB2s]

Maybe its time to close it from sportscars and make it under 2ltrs Saloons for a undisclosed period of time, then open it back up to sportscars again when those get too hot to handle, or something different from what it is now.

[terence]

A little too bold a thing for Alaine and vincent to take on,dont forget they make a very good living out the farce.

[Robyn Slater]

The way i see it,...... racing = development, ......be it car or driver.

Build/develop a car within a set of regs then police the regs.

If you don't like it walk away,there's plenty of museums to visit.

[john ruston]

It's not what is sporting or non sporting its what can make historic racing more accessible to a wider circle of interested people.

I don't consider it cheating on basis that all the front runners can throw buckets full of dosh at car development so its even for top handful of cars but in my opinion has a detrimental effect on the rest of the historic racing world.

Pity ,it was a great hobby but getting to the situation where because of what is being allowed makes it not worth bothering with.

[simon drabble]

There is no doubt that cars are getting quicker but interestingly it seems MGB's have stabilized and now it's the turn of E Types. The quickest one this year qualified with 2-47 some 3 seconds quicker than the Minshaw car. By way of comparison back 2005 JR's Merlyn qualified on pole with 2-49 and we were 4th on the grid with 2-56.....

As others have said if the race becomes to much of an arms race the bulk of entrants will fall away. I don't profess to know the answer but I will be very sad if it becomes a race that is pointless for us clubbies!

[Mike Bell]

Bumped into John Miles at Snetterton today, and he was not surprised a 26R placed so well at Spa. He was impressed that it lasted 6hrs, though! He knows that the cars he drove were 160bhp, a figure that most twin cam people would expect to better nowadays?

[john ruston]

A twin cam is about 185/195 these days and two people have units that are more powerful than that.

It might not surprise John Miles but it does surprise those closely associated with Elans in Historic Racing.


What was his dads famous advert?

[FastDB2s]

If you look at any pre74 Lotus they can all really be made to go well, just spending ages & loads of dosh getting reliability, I wonder how well a Lotus Europa S1 would go if you looked at it hard enough or a 47

[john ruston]

The problem of the 47/Europa was the B8
John Miles used to drive the works 47 with those periscope
Things.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

By the way Messrs H and S used a 26 R.

I remember that race; that car was the only one that could ride both exit kerbs from the old bus stop without missing a beat, everyone else had a lift. Very impressive.

[Serge]

Originally Posted by FastDB2s

If you look at any pre74 Lotus they can all really be made to go well, just spending ages & loads of dosh getting reliability, I wonder how well a Lotus Europa S1 would go if you looked at it hard enough or a 47

Hopefully we'll find out, I'm building a Europa S1 at the moment, but it will take another couple of years to finish it. Problem with it is the renault R16 wedgehead engine, you're looking at +/- 150bhp MAX, probably a little bit less. Mine being the oldest one around (#460002), is a 1967 car and the first regs that make it somewhat worthwhile building it to are Period G2 GTS regs. But that period is full of much quicker machinery.

A 47 would indeed be a quick car if built correctly I imagine. Has a lot of improvements over an S1.


Kind regards,

Serge