Homologation specials discussion

[FIRE]

The LADA's will have a 30 kg weight reduction at Oschersleben. Russian Bears Motorsport wanted 40 kg less. Source: RTL GP

[Ellmau]

I hope they didn't base this on the results of Shapovalov.

[awrb]

I love the way that these dispensations started out as equalisations to combat disadvantages with the cars, such as RWD/FWD, hatch/saloon, but now they don't even bother with excuses. If the team wants one, they can have one.

[touringlegend]

Just like Gabriele Tarquini said, you may as well build a bad car and then get dispensations.

[AxelF]

@touringlegend: Tarquini was a bit late and had no logic in his interview...

First, logically, it would be a good choice for a new manufacturer, to build a bad car and then get dispensations - its a lot cheaper to build a bad car than a good one...
And even Seat got dispensations for their bad car in the last years (as they aren't able to build a car like BMW has...).

Also Seat has made some political moves to get the Volvo C30 slow...you cannot worry against dispensation, if you work with them against others.


Second, why know already, that the best drive will be rearwheel-drive, but most manufacturers build cheap frontwheel drive. So we need dispensations to equal them a little bit. And a minivan like the Seat cannot be as effective in aerodynamics like a BMW or something like that.

I think, without dispensations we see only races like the F1-race in Valencia...good track but boring race...no overtaking, no duels, no racing!!!!!

Christian

[awrb]

Originally Posted by AxelF

And a minivan like the Seat cannot be as effective in aerodynamics like a BMW or something like that.

I think, without dispensations we see only races like the F1-race in Valencia...good track but boring race...no overtaking, no duels, no racing!!!!!

Yes the Leon not going to be as aerodynamic as the 320si, but then SEAT shoul dhave chosen a different car, or work on the aero harder, or just give up and put all resourses into the engine. As it stands at the moment, the series seems to be in between a one make series and a touring car championship, where all the cars are different, but none are allowed to be any faster than the others.

Even if the BMW's were allowed to be faster than the rest, I think the racing would still be decent. For a start, when the F1 Ferrari's are fastest, thats 2 cars at the front (until Massa spins), whereas there's 5 BMW's. There's been fairly low team orders in the series, apart from the last races, which is to be expected. And there's three teams running the 'works' BMW's, so Schnitzer will want to beat RBM and Ravaglia to proove they are the best.

At the moment these stupind rules are ruining the motorsport. Close racing yes, but none of the interest in the cars, none of the fascination of which car will be best.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by AxelF

And even Seat got dispensations for their bad car in the last years (as they aren't able to build a car like BMW has...).

Ehh... don't exclude BMW from the group of rule manipulators. They are no better than the rest.

Eg the Swedish guy that built the Mercs (in STCC and ADAC Procar) a few years back in an interview was asked/answered something along the lines of "What would you do differently if starting over? There where things we wanted to do, but where not allowed to due to regulations, but now those very things are on the new BMWs due to dispensations. So next time I would build the cars like I want them to be and then just get dispensations later."

And dont get me started on BMW requiring a WEIGHT DROP to agree to WTCC making 1 of 2 races have a rolling start. A standing start is a clear advantage for RWD while a rolling is R/FWD neutral, yet BMW fought to be compensated in BOTH races for a rolling start in 1 of the races...

Also, eg SEAT has a flat floor dispensation... but did you ever SEE how flat the BMW racecars are underneeth? A normal roadgoing car you can buy at a BMW dealer is a LOT less flat... BMW just did the other classic thing to cheat the rules "build minimum required amount of cars selling some surplus to enthusiasts to use on roads"

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by stedevil

BMW just did the other classic thing to cheat the rules "build minimum required amount of cars selling some surplus to enthusiasts to use on roads"

Homologation specials are part of touringcar racing. Have you ever seen a 'Honda Accord Euro-R' at your dealership? Or going back to the past, what about the Opel Omega 3000? Mercedes 190 Evo?

[awrb]

The difference with the homologation special s that at the beginning of the season everyone new that if you built X amount of a car you could use it. So BMW did, SEAT didn't, bu thtey new they could if they wanted to.

At the beginning of the year, BMW didn't know that if they made there car rubbish aerodynamically, they'd be allowed a flat bottom.

As for the rolling start thing, BMW obviously saw this as an attack on them, which it was, and were annoyed that they built a car to the best spec, only to have some of that work negated by a lat echange in rules.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Homologation specials are part of touringcar racing. Have you ever seen a 'Honda Accord Euro-R' at your dealership? Or going back to the past, what about the Opel Omega 3000? Mercedes 190 Evo?

I agree. It would be different if manufacturers only needed to build 25 or 50 cars instead of 2500 cars.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I agree. It would be different if manufacturers only needed to build 25 or 50 cars instead of 2500 cars.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, 2500 isn't exactly a small amount of cars.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Yeah, exactly. I mean, 2500 isn't exactly a small amount of cars.

Indeed, the number used to be a lot lower, but was rised to make it a lot less easy to do very extreme homologation specials. But BMW can still afford to build these 2500 because they know they will get their surplus >200.000€ cars sold anyway since they are targeting that market with their brand in any case. But who the hell would pay 200.000€ for a Seat?

I think it's pretty self-evident that Seats (and Hondas and Cheavys and Ladas) cars based on their regular lineup needs some benefits to keep up with a purpose built racecar.

Or are people that eager to see LESS carbrands in WTCC?!?

[Dead-Eye]

Maybe a GT3-like approach would work: Balance the cars at the start of the season and ban development during the year. You'd still get close racing and do away with the "who's getting a dispensation this week?" wheel of fortune.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Indeed, the number used to be a lot lower, but was rised to make it a lot less easy to do very extreme homologation specials. But BMW can still afford to build these 2500 because they know they will get their surplus >200.000€ cars sold anyway since they are targeting that market with their brand in any case. But who the hell would pay 200.000€ for a Seat?

200.000€ The BMW 320si was sold for not that much more than the 320i. We're only talking 2500 cars here, even Seat will be able to get rid of that.

[PorscheFanNo1]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...w_3series.html
BMW 320si: £25,000 = €31,000 = $45,000

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...e-1004747.html
SEAT Leon tdi: £13,412-£17,512

Just some fast googling, better numbers could probably be found, but it gets an idea of how the cars cost, the Beemer costs twice as much as the SEAT.



Personally I like when the manufacturers make the roadcars more suitable for racing, but instead of making 2500 special versions of the 320 they should just have made those racing changes to the standard 320 instead, its not THAT much that is changed but it probably makes the car a little more fun.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...w_3series.html
BMW 320si: £25,000 = €31,000 = $45,000

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...e-1004747.html
SEAT Leon tdi: £13,412-£17,512

Just some fast googling, better numbers could probably be found, but it gets an idea of how the cars cost, the Beemer costs twice as much as the SEAT.

Thats not the point The point was if the extra costs would make the car unsellable. The 320si is roughly 5,000 pounds more expensive than the 320i. Translated to the Leon that would be a 2,500 pound price on top of the standard TDI for a homologation special. Thats not that much more extra for the buyer. And they're definitely not 200.000€ like mentioned before.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

And they're definitely not 200.000€ like mentioned before.

Yes sorry, just took some numbers I remembered from somewhere, but that probably included the race kit and spares for a full TC season (and possibly 2 cars for the team ).

The point was if the extra costs would make the car unsellable. The 320si is roughly 5,000 pounds more expensive than the 320i. Translated to the Leon that would be a 2,500 pound price on top of the standard TDI for a homologation special. Thats not that much more extra for the buyer.

That the Seat cost half as much from the start would not mean the changes needed would also cost half of the BMWs. Much likely it would cost more then the BMW since the Leon starts out as a budget alternative and would need more improvements, not less, to reach the same level as an improved BMW chassis.

But even +5000£ makes it pretty unsellable because the target market for the Leon is on a tight budget and at +5000 many other interesting options would come into existence as well for a potential buyer. If VAG would be competing with the VW or especially Audi brands, the higher cost though could probably work, but for marketing reasons they are running the Seat hatchback.

[AxelF]

Homologation specials are not the problem...

You can buy a used 90' BMW M3 Sport Evo oder Mercedes 190 Evo2 now at the price of a new one in the old days.

These homologation specials would be sold better than the normal cars, if they have something really special on it.

It must be more than some stickers or parts you can't see underneath. The 320si looks like every other 3 series, and also the power of 173PS is not very promising. If it had 200, than it would be ok.

If Seat would sell a Leon with 200 TDI horses and the body of the WTCC-car, it would be a hit! There were enough guys out there, who would like to buy a factory tuned car rather than tuning their normal car at a tuner (warranty etc.).

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by stedevil

But even +5000£ makes it pretty unsellable because the target market for the Leon is on a tight budget and at +5000 many other interesting options would come into existence as well for a potential buyer. If VAG would be competing with the VW or especially Audi brands, the higher cost though could probably work, but for marketing reasons they are running the Seat hatchback.

Lets not forget the target market for a homologation special is a different one than for the normal TDI. VAG is trying to position Seat as the 'Alfa' of VAG, they don't have the slogan 'auto emocion' for nothing. Again, 2500 cars aint much. Spread those over the whole of Europe and the markets outside of Europe where Seat is active (Mexico? Brazil?) and I'm sure they'll be sold.

PS: Maybe one of the moderators can split the homologation special discussion? Its an interesting discussion but quite off-topic

[touringlegend]

Yes, indeed. Topic split so please post any homologation posts in here.

[Aslak Vind]

Also, eg SEAT has a flat floor dispensation... but did you ever SEE how flat the BMW racecars are underneeth? A normal roadgoing car you can buy at a BMW dealer is a LOT less flat... BMW just did the other classic thing to cheat the rules "build minimum required amount of cars selling some surplus to enthusiasts to use on roads

That is not correct. The 320is homologation streetcar has actually a flat floor as well, or at least as close to it as possible. So nothing spooky or strange there...

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

That is not correct. The 320is homologation streetcar has actually a flat floor as well, or at least as close to it as possible.

That is exactly what I said...