Should the BTCC have more larger family cars in the touring class?

[adamp_uk]

whats your opinion?
should there be bigger cars included aswell as the smaller?
what a great championship the BTCC is at the momnet, but is there need for change or should we let the BMP develop it themselves?
e-mail or reply.

[AndyF]

With the lack of cars that affected the 2001 season, any aditional cars would be appreciated! I think if a couple of manufacturer's displayed an interest, then the rules would be changed!

[runnyhunny]

What are ou on about?!

Nothing needs changing!

The current 'BTC Touring' regulations allow a manufacturer to enter a small car, or a larger car. It's entirely up to them.

The Alfa 147 and Vauxhall Astra Coupe are small cars. The 406 Coupe, Lexus IS200 and MG ZS are noticably larger.

Looking to the 2002 season, the Honda Civic is a small car, but the Proton Impian/Waja and Alfa 156 are larger cars.

We've got a nice mixed field - that makes things interesting!

[Radisichrox]

I agree with Runnyhunny.

[AndyF]

Originally posted by runnyhunny
What are ou on about?!

Nothing needs changing!

The current 'BTC Touring' regulations allow a manufacturer to enter a small car, or a larger car. It's entirely up to them.

The Alfa 147 and Vauxhall Astra Coupe are small cars. The 406 Coupe, Lexus IS200 and MG ZS are noticably larger.

Looking to the 2002 season, the Honda Civic is a small car, but the Proton Impian/Waja and Alfa 156 are larger cars.

We've got a nice mixed field - that makes things interesting!

How large can you go and still fit within BTCC regulations. I am guessing something the size of a Merc C-Class/BMW 5-series would be too big?

[kmchow]

Historically, the largest ST cars was the Dodge Stratus which is about the size of the new MB C-Class. But I agree there should ideally be more structure to the series like having an all 4dr sedan series. Now, it's really tacky(???) to have hatchbacks, sedans and coupes all clumped together. Right now, it looks more like a mixed up race series. Quasi ST, one make, and low level series?

[Jonny Apex]

Of course it should be for manufacturers' Touring models: eg Vectra, Laguna, Mondeo, etc. That's what it's called, sin;t it? The British TOURING Car Championship, not British Coupe Car Championship.

Also, making it strictly for Tourers would bring back more manufacturers, or at least get them thinking about coming in - it's Tourers, after all, that they sell most of on the roads and that's the reason they go racing.

[JEMMO]

Originally posted by kmchow
Historically, the largest ST cars was the Dodge Stratus which is about the size of the new MB C-Class. But I agree there should ideally be more structure to the series like having an all 4dr sedan series. Now, it's really tacky(???) to have hatchbacks, sedans and coupes all clumped together. Right now, it looks more like a mixed up race series. Quasi ST, one make, and low level series?

I think that the series should be restricted to 2 door coupes and 4 door saloons (like the old days when BMW raced 2dr M3'S and 318iS').
Previously in ST there was a minimum length regulation (4.2m?) which ruled out most cars smaller than Vectras and Mondeos so perhaps that rule could be brought back. With the state the championship is in at the moment though all entries are welcome.

Also, was the Volvo 850 bigger than the Stratus? and thinking about it, the Toyota Camry that raced in South Africa and Australia was quite big...

[runnyhunny]

Look at the different cars that have been in the British Touring Car Championship since it started. Everything from a Mini to a giant Rover!

dictionary.com says that 'touring' means 'a series of professional tournaments' and/or travelling to different places!

In the car world, 'touring' is the trendy name for 'estate', and I don't see many estates in racing series.

Forcing the minimum length rule to 4.2m (as in 1993-2000) would *NOT* bring back manufacturers. It was the manufacturers who wanted the minimum length *REDUCED*.

I don't believe there is a 'maximum length' - that Volvo 850 Estate was prolly quite long!

I'll say again for those who don't want to listen... If a manufacturer wants to enter a larger car (e.g. Vectra, Laguna, Mondeo, Primera etc.) then they can. *NOTHING* is stopping them.

Look at Vauxhall - they can promote either, and they don't want to promote the Vectra. Why? It's a shed, and it's being replaced.

[JEMMO]

Yeah I agree with all that.

Didn't know it was the manufacturers who wanted the minimum length thing reduced...

[adamp_uk]

i think at the moment its a good idea to have varying sizes but i predict that BMP will eventually state a rule such as number of doors etc or will they leave it as it is and have as many varied cars as possible. This should make it more interesting as there is a car for everyone.
It is really up to the manufacturer to choose which car to promote. frankly i think 2003 should see the new vectra take over from the astra coupe.
Keep them there opinions flowing.

[racer69]

I think the 4.2m rule should be reintroduced to the Touring Class, but make it so that 2 door coupes and 4 door cars can compete. Hatches are fine for lower classes, like Production, but not in the top class.

[kmchow]

Okay, okay, I also would be willing to make a concession and have the minimumm length of 4.2M be reduced to 4.0M, but no shorter. Definitely, I think hatchbacks should be kept to the lower class! Coupes...hmmm, unless the series is as weak as it is right now, then we'll let them race. Hopefully, with newly redesigned cars becoming available, we'll get back to 4 door sedans only rule? I think a brand new Astra and Focus are appearing in '03 or'04?? It would be good to launch/market those sedans via the BTCC???

[runnyhunny]

kmchow/racer69,

You've said that you are not keen on coupes or hatchbacks, but WHY exactly is this?

From what I recall, the old 4.2m minimum length (from 1993-2000) was reduced *slightly*, so that the Astra and Focus could fit in. I don't have a copy of the current rules to hand, so I'm not sure of the exact length. How long is an Alfa 147, anyway?!

I'll also throw in some flame-bait by saying that in my honest opinion the Alfa 147 was the best looking Touring car from 2001, closely followed by the 406 Coupe.

[redshoes]

From what I recall, the old 4.2m minimum length (from 1993-2000) was reduced *slightly*, so that the Astra and Focus could fit in. I don't have a copy of the current rules to hand, so I'm not sure of the exact length. How long is an Alfa 147, anyway?!

Touring was reduced to 4.1m. From memory the Alfa is something like 4.13m. That's a tad over an inch long enough to you non-metric folks.

As far as I know FIA Production rules don't specify a mimimal length, just a requirement to be a proper 4 seater.

[kmchow]

runnyhunny wrote:

>You've said that you are not keen on coupes or hatchbacks, but WHY
>exactly is this?
>
Personally, I think that hatchbacks are entry level/starter vehicles for people. Eventually, they will move onto nicer (usually bigger) and more expensive cars. As a result, I think the BTCC (at least top class) should follow this same trend and remain a sedan series. As well, I find the rear wings sit more nicely balanced on sedans/coupes than on hatchbacks. On hatchbacks, they seem terribly tacked/stuck on the back.

I think hatchbacks have their place in motorsports as an one make series where new drivers/teams can get experience on a relatively "cheap" budget.

I feel the same way about coupes like the Astra and 406, thought not as harshly as I do about the hatchback.

As well, I liked how there was a unifying theme to ST!! Despite all the different brands, all the cars were sedans. It's the single and most obvious thing the cars shared.

So perhaps moving down to 4.1M is enough to draw more competitors like the Toyota Corolla and Civic sedan?

Right now, the BTCC looks "cheap"--it's become the "garbage can of motorsports" (sorry for the harsh language!!) , they're so desperate they'll let anything on four wheels race! Coupe/hatchback/sedan/anything!!! OTOH, we can't blame them since the BTCC was bascially on it's deathbed!! Sigh....

Or perhaps ST has just done a terribly good job at brainwashing me and making me a stubborn 4 door sedan fan???

[outcast]

Originally posted by adamp_uk
Should the BTCC have more larger family cars in the touring class?

You mean things like the Mondeo Estate for example?!?

[runnyhunny]

I really don't see why people think of a hatchback as cheap/wrong/etc. I honestly believe you have been brainwashed into thinking that 1993-2000 was the only touring car period ever! Look further back!!!

If the minimum length had been left at 4.2m, I would imagine that Vauxhall would have walked away after 2000. They didn't want to promote the Vectra because it's a shed, and there is a new one out soon. Peugeot wouldn't have joined, because the 406 saloon would have brought back bad memories. Oh, and Honda wouldn't be entering thie year, because they are about to scrap the Accord.

Where would that have left the BTCC? As a Super Production series, and that's *NOT* a good thing AT ALL.

I'll say yet again: if a manufacturer wants to enter a longer car, they can. They will enter whatever they want to promote. If no large cars need promoting, would you rather they walked away?!

[redshoes]

Originally posted by runnyhunny
I really don't see why people think of a hatchback as cheap/wrong/etc. I honestly believe you have been brainwashed into thinking that 1993-2000 was the only touring car period ever! Look further back!!!

Too right. What you have to remember is why the rules were brought in in the first place. back in 1992 TOCA worked out what cars they wanted to see racing and wrote the rules to fit. Same as the DTM did.

[Carrie]

This debate seems to keep popping back up, didn't we have it at the beginning of the 2001 season. I honestly have no objections to seeing hatchbacks race, afterall, it's not as if it hasn't happened before. As long as the racing is good, I'm not particularly fussy whether the cars are big or small (and no, that doesn't mean to say I think we should have a Smart car on the grid) At the end of the day, it's the quality of the racing that's the important factor.

[runnyhunny]

Quite right.

Another plus point with smaller cars is that they fit onto our small/tight/twisty UK tracks better! Think back to a set of 1996 Super Tourers pounding around Knockhill. It was daft - the cars were too big for the track, and more often than not, drivers couldn't overtake. Smaller cars are much better in this respect. Remember Tim Harvey using his little Alfa 147 to pass TWO cars in one corner at Oulton Park?! Fab!

[adamp_uk]

Good Point although i still think that there should be 4 door sedans in about 2005-2007 when the sport is recovered well.

until then keep them there hatches/coupes/sedans rollin'
although it would be nice to see a return of 4 door saloons - When you all refer back to the mini's and sierras etc i wont remember them as i was about 1! although i did read an interesting book on touring cars...which told me about mini's etc.


keep replys going

[JEMMO]

At the moment the BTCC needs all the manufacturers it can get to help the series grow. They are going to race whatever they want to promote whether its a hatchback, saloon or coupe. For instance I would imagine that Honda want to use motorsport to promote their 'Type R' brand and since the Civic is the newest car in their range to carry this branding they will race it.

Personally Im not over keen on the hatchbacks racing but they increase grid numbers which has to be good if we want closer, more exciting racing. I dont see anything wrong with two door coupes. As I think I said somewhere else nobody ever seemed to worry about the two door BMW's from 1991 and 1992.