Jos Verstappen vs. his team mates

steve nielsen · 5 Jan 2003, 17:55 (Ref:464608)

Bernoldi only matched Jos in qualifying, he was nowhere near Jos in races.

NiceGuyEddie · 5 Jan 2003, 17:57 (Ref:464610)

No, he didnt match Jos in qualifying, he beat him. And when unimpressive rookies defeat experienced drivers in the one and only session in which drivers are really put head to head on speed, than the experienced driver has a massive problem. Even if he is ahead in the races.

BootsOntheSide · 5 Jan 2003, 18:50 (Ref:464653)

Yea, I've been watching F1 in the time I should've been learning to type.

I saw Bernoldi outqualify Jos 10-7. I saw Bernoldi duel with Coulthard's McLaren for half the race at Monaco. I saw Frentzen do unbelievable things with an untested, underfunded car ran by a disorganisednear-bankrupt team. I never saw Jos do anything impressive, in his entire career really.

Kex · 5 Jan 2003, 20:19 (Ref:464734)

That crash of his at Brazil '94 was pretty impressive, even though it wasn't his fault.

But to be fair to Jos, he did drag that Simtek up to 6th from 14th in Argentina a year later.

Anyway. I hope Frentzen does well this season as it could be his last. He showed what he could do with that Arrows last year with the two sixth places and running well at Silverstone.

steve nielsen · 5 Jan 2003, 20:28 (Ref:464747)

Quote:

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Yea, I've been watching F1 in the time I should've been learning to type.

I saw Bernoldi outqualify Jos 10-7. I saw Bernoldi duel with Coulthard's McLaren for half the race at Monaco. I saw Frentzen do unbelievable things with an untested, underfunded car ran by a disorganisednear-bankrupt team. I never saw Jos do anything impressive, in his entire career really.

Yes you did see Bernoldi in Monaco, but Jos was far ahead of Bernoldi and had overtaken several cars(Alonso an Button)

Jos scored a point in Austria in 2001 ahead of Villeneuve and Irvine, Jos drove 2nd in that race, he also drove 2nd in Malasia where he just missed out on a point(7th behind Ralf). in 2000 Jos drove a fantastic race in Canada outdriving Wurz and Trulli to take 5th, he also scored a 4th place in Monza.I also remember Jos outbraking DC's Mclaren in 96(when Jos drove an Arrows hart) for 6th place in Argentine(he almost did the same to Eddie Irvine in the Ferrari in the last lap)after driving the Arrows Hart to 7th on the grid, Jos set the fastes lap during the first half of the Brazillian GP in 96 wich was'nt improved on until the track dried(not even by Alesi or TGF).
I remember Jos outbreaking Rubens in 1997, Jos was driving a Tyrrell-Ford V8, Rubens drove a Stewart Ford V10.
and indeed: he drove 6th with a Simtek!

so you never saw Jos doing anything impressive??

you really need glasses!!

http://videofiles1.f1gp.ru/video/00/canada/canada7.asf

Glen · 5 Jan 2003, 20:53 (Ref:464772)

Classic post Steve.

Don K · 5 Jan 2003, 21:06 (Ref:464781)

Quote:

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Bernoldi matched Verstappen. Frentzen trounced Bernoldi. Frentzen is a triple Grand Prix winner, took Jordan on anotehr level and often matched Villeneuve. Verstappen can't even remember to brake when the race leader has just lapped you, and ahs been trashed by every decent team-mate he's ever had, and even by journeymen like De La Rosa.

Bernoldi - Verstappen 0-1
Verstappen - De la Rosa 5-2

As far as I remember, during the collission with Montoya Jos did break ealier than normal, driving at a lower speed.
But of course he should have been aware by that time (3rd race of the season) that the Williams cars sometimes tended to slow down faster/earlier than other cars (cf Jacques' collision in the first race).

The only team mate who managed to trash Verstappen was Michael Schumacher, in Verstappen's rookie year as test driver.
Rubens and Salo only just beat Jos, just like Jos (as a rookie) only just beat Lehto and Herbert.

NiceGuyEddie · 5 Jan 2003, 21:35 (Ref:464799)

Jos beat Herbert?
When?

Don't you mean Domenico Schiatarella?

The brakestory in the Montoya-accident is believed by almost... no one.

Verstappen shouldve trashed Bernoldi in very way possible if he were to hold on to his selfproclaimed status. He didn't. Frentzen did. So he got the Sauber drive in about a month after he left Arrows. Jos was sacked on february 7th 2002, and still isn't signed.

Oh, and the 5-2 between Jos and Pedro is rather flattered, isn't it? Didn't score Jos 3 of those points in a race where Pedro was the innocent victim of a massive startcollision in which a big part of the midfielders were taken out?

It was Nigel Roebuck who called Pedro the revelation of the 2000-season, after Pedro got sacked by Arrows. Didn't have a problem landing another driver though. The mark of a wanted driver.

steve nielsen · 5 Jan 2003, 22:53 (Ref:464865)

Pedro was'nt innocent, he should have seen it comming, Jos saw the accident and braked, Pedro drove into the back of Herbert.

NiceGuyEddie · 5 Jan 2003, 23:29 (Ref:464904)

Quote:

Originally posted by steve nielsen
Pedro was'nt innocent, he should have seen it comming, Jos saw the accident and braked, Pedro drove into the back of Herbert.

wow, great come back...

Pedro isn't a great driver, and Jos didn't shine against him. Enrique is worse than Pedro, and still Jos didn't shine, nor did he take real advantage of his experience. Salo was never regarded as the worlds best driver, yet the concensus is that he beat Jos. Same goes for Herbert, who not only replaces Jos in 1994, but also in 1999. On both occasions Herbert did manage to get his contract renewed where Jos failed to do so.

Jos only beat the guys that were renowned for their utter lack of abbility. We are talking about the likes of Rosset and Schiatarella. What does that make Jos? Utter mediocre. And mediocrity isn't enough to justify a career of holding on to straws, collecting about 17 points in the proces, where were contracts more often shredded than renewed or even honoured. Surely, even mediocrity has its moments, as you are happy to point out. But the mere fact that you are able to point out those moments in a career of 7 seasons, proves the mediocrity of it all.

So, give it up. Formula 1 has much more to offer than the **** that is coming from Holland these days.

DNQ · 6 Jan 2003, 01:11 (Ref:464961)

Quote:

Originally posted by Don K
Verstappen - De la Rosa 5-2

I honestly think PDLR was closer to Jos then people credit him. The raw stats lie.

Don K · 6 Jan 2003, 06:42 (Ref:465063)

Quote:

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Jos beat Herbert?
When?

1994, Benetton.
Jos scored 10 points in 10 races.
Herbert scored 0 points in 4 races.

Don K · 6 Jan 2003, 06:46 (Ref:465065)

Quote:

Originally posted by DNQ
I honestly think PDLR was closer to Jos then people credit him. The raw stats lie.

Possibly.
But I used that stat (Verstappen - De la Rosa 5-2) to remind BootsOnTheSide that De la Rosa didn't trash Verstappen.

Don K · 6 Jan 2003, 06:50 (Ref:465067)

Quote:

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Jos only beat the guys that were renowned for their utter lack of abbility.

???

Are you saying that Bernoldi, De la Rosa, Herbert and Lehto are renowned for their utter lack of ability?

Or are you saying that good drivers would not have beaten Rosset and Schiatarella?

Mr V · 6 Jan 2003, 10:16 (Ref:465163)

Quote:

Originally posted by Don K
1994, Benetton.
Jos scored 10 points in 10 races.
Herbert scored 0 points in 4 races.

Don, i believe your wrong here, Johnny only raced twice for Benetton in 1994 at Japan and Adelaide.

how about this statistic, both in championship winning cars...

Benetton 1994....Jos 10 points in 10 races (ave 1 point per race)
Benetton 1995....Johnny 44 points in 17 races (ave 2.58 points per race)

f1manoz · 6 Jan 2003, 10:35 (Ref:465184)

Quote:

Originally posted by Don K
1994, Benetton.
Jos scored 10 points in 10 races.
Herbert scored 0 points in 4 races.

That's hardly fair when everything is taken into consideration.

Jos had been with the team from the start of the season, whether as driver or tester. Herbert was dragged in from Lotus via Ligier near the end of the season with limited testing and suffered mechanical failures in every race...

JR Ewing · 6 Jan 2003, 12:21 (Ref:465262)

As a non-Jos fan I think '94 is not a fair year to judge him on as he was a rookie who came in too soon, after Jarvilehto was injured.

NiceGuyEddie · 6 Jan 2003, 13:01 (Ref:465285)

Quote:

Originally posted by Don K
???

Are you saying that Bernoldi, De la Rosa, Herbert and Lehto are renowned for their utter lack of ability?

Or are you saying that good drivers would not have beaten Rosset and Schiatarella?

No, I am saying that those drivers weren´t beaten by Jos. The Herbert-case has been argued by my fellow-members, as has the Delarosa-case. On behalf of Lehto I would like to add that Lehto´s promising carreer was effectivly over after the crash in testing during the winter of 93/94.

A little note to JR Ewing:
What do you mean ´too soon´? Most drivers seem up to the F1-task after clincing a F3-title. There are drivers with much less pre-F1experience than Jos had, but still they managed to succeed or at least clinch multiseason-contracts. Too soon? Neh... Too light? More likely.

steve nielsen · 6 Jan 2003, 16:18 (Ref:465409)

Jos did drive a few GP's together with Lehto(when TGF was suspended), but still beat him.

and Jos only drove 1 season of Opel Lotus and 1 season of F3 before his F1 debut, he drove karts in 91......

BootsOntheSide · 6 Jan 2003, 16:23 (Ref:465414)

So how did Raikkonen do so well after only 1 season in cars?

Lehto's confidence and form was destroyed by his testing crash pre-season, and aside from 2 races at Sauber he never returned to F1. Benetton had every option to keep Jos on for 1995, yet they went for a driver who had achieved little of his potential up until then. They also passed him over for 1996, despite his admittedly impressive Simtek drives, in favour of 2 newcomers. What does that tell you?

R · 6 Jan 2003, 20:01 (Ref:465659)

Now I've moved all the Verstappen discussion into a new thread, and then we can leave the Frentzen and Sauber thread for discussing... Frentzen and Sauber.

Mr V · 6 Jan 2003, 22:17 (Ref:465767)

Quote:

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide

Lehto's confidence and form was destroyed by his testing crash pre-season,

I should imagine that his confidence was further destroyed when his car stalled on the grid and rammed from behind at Imola.

Jordi · 6 Jan 2003, 22:31 (Ref:465781)

Both JV's of F1 are wanted out..

I think Jos can still do the job. Not always, but he's not as bad as some say.

I think Pedro is also not that bad... but he seems to be already out...

Dani Filth · 7 Jan 2003, 00:16 (Ref:465863)

agree with Jordi .. his not as good as Schumi .. but he's not as bad as Yoong ... give him a decent car an can make some good races

TheGreatJuan · 7 Jan 2003, 00:53 (Ref:465873)

Quote:

Originally posted by Dani Filth
agree with Jordi .. his not as good as Schumi .. but he's not as bad as Yoong ... give him a decent car an can make some good races

What about the Benetton 94? Even if the best car was given to schumi Jos still had a race winning capable car and he was nowhere near getting a victory.

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