Ralt RT2

[Dan Rear]

Picking up on this subject from another thread (Brabhams) dereklola posts that he has some chassis histories. I believe there were 4 originally made, 3 for Tolemans in 79, then a further 1 for Schafer in 1980. They were super looking cars, and very quick, by all accounts the Tolemans in 1980 were carbon copies.

IIRC 2 of the 79 cars went to the US for CanAm, the other to ZA for Atlantic. Don't know what happened to the Schafer car though, nor the one described as an RT2 entered for Stanley in early 81 F2 at Silverstone. Any details dereklola/Jeremy/Chris.

[cirrus]

Despite having been involved in a hands-on, well... pencil-on way (I drew one incarnation of the inner tub skins) I can't remember how many RT2s were built. According to the Mike Lawrence book (which Ron Tauranac reckons is the definitive record of his work) there were five, although it implies that they all went to Toleman. I wouldn't be surprised if Bert Schafer bought one though - he was a prolific Ralt customer at the time (and a thoroughly nice guy as well).

[dereklola]

Thx guys - but I kick myself for writing too soon - I was going to reference a website that I've done based on what I've found out over the last couple of years. But when I checked it it needs some editing.

Be patient I'll get back to you in couple of days.

In summary though there appear to be six "real" RT2 - 3 for Toleman in 1979 (of which two are now in the US and the other scrapped in South Africa), one came straight to the US for CanAm in 1980 (mine), one went to Germany in 1981 and is still there and a sixth one has appeared with a later serial number. This last one appears to be the most "original" - still in Hart F2 form.

But serial number plates on Ralt seem to be largely missing. My two Ralts (I also have an RT4) had plates but literally you can flip them off with a coin or screwdriver. And if you want to just as easily glue them back on.

Quite possibly Ralt made extra tubs. Certainly Marc Bahner in California has made a lot of RT4 and RT5 replacement tubs for SCCA racing. And then there are the T850's - I've never seen one but I understand they are basically identical.

Then there were the Lant copies from South Africa based on the RT2 that went there.I've heard of one of these in Ireland and one still in South Africa.

And finally there are the Lola T850's which apparently Toleman commissioned.

The 1980 Toleman cars are of similar design but significantly in detail.

Be patient and I'll finsh up my website - then fire away at me!

Derek

[dereklola]

That should have read -
The 1980 Toleman cars are of similar design but significantly different in detail.

I have some detail pictures.
Derek (originally from Burnley)

[Richard Young]

Ref: Lants. The one in Irland currently belongs to a chap called Peter McKinley who has been hill climbing it with Warrion 2l power. I did one event in it (sweet car)when it belonged to Cyril Lynch, who brought it into Ireland from the UK. At the time he said he had contacted Lant people in SA and that there were '20 or so' chassis in various stages of build, but that everything had stopped. The implication was thay they could be bought.....
Sadly Cyril passed away last year, so no further details from this end.
Surely those Lola T850/Tolemans were simply Rory Byrne Toleman chassis 'productionised' by Lola. Did Ralt have any input, or am I reading this wrong at 1am ?

[dereklola]

OK - please go to http://rt2ralt.homestead.com and click on the various links to get detail info. Several pages still need pictures added - will do tommorrow.

I've added a note about Bert Schafer possibly being the early (original?) owner of the Winkelhock/Interserie car. Any thoughts on this appreciated.

Also please fire away about anything else I've written.

To Richard Young - you're right about the T850 - my brain wasn't switched on. Also glad to have your comment about 20 or so Lants - that tallies with the info I got from Bernard Tilanus.

Over to you guys - you're the experts not me.

Derek

[ghinzani]

Interestingly Toleman used one of the TG280s for F1 Hart engine testing initially, and it was quick! I often wonder why they never used that as thier F1 car and just did pit-stops when it ran out of fuel. Actually thinking about it the engine may not have lasted until they got to the fuel stops! Surely that would have been better than humping the General Belgrano round various circuits in 81 and qualifying twice??

Anyway I digress - does that make it the second Ralt F1 car by proxy after the Theodore of 78? (I am ignoring Brabhams here of course..)??

[dereklola]

Some more F2 race result updates added.
http://rt2ralt.homestead.com
Any comments/updates?
Photos soon!
Derek

[Dan Rear]

Derek

I'm sure Schafer was the owner of the RT2 that came out in 1980, for Rad Doygall IIRC. It appeared a few times that year, but not a full season, then again a few races with Winklehock in early 81, very nearly winning at Hockenheim, beaten at the last corner by Johannson in a Lola (Toleman) T850. So this car was definitely an 80 build, and new to Schafer I'm certain. Don't know about it afterwards, anyone got a chassis no. ??

[Jeremy Jackson]

F1R lists Rad Dougall's car (entered by Cassani Racing Team) as an "RT4", but chassis "RT2-181". This was actually entered as an RT2 in 1981 for Winkelhock, by Schafer Racing.

As Chris always says, we can't take F1R's 1970s-80s stuff as Gospel, but may be a starting point point for input from someone...?

[dereklola]

Aha - a light is coming on.

Attached is a pic of my two chassis plates. RT4-180 looks normal (came off my ealy RT4 Atlantic). RT2-172 has been altered and judging by the distortion was altered while on the tub.

Now my RT2 came with the RT4 "tea tray" rear suspension mounting - I always thought maybe it got altered during its life here in the US (there were many RT4s here). But now I see pictures of the Schafer/Winkelhock car with the same "tea tray" - pic attached to a following post.

So - that may well explain the confusion about the Schafer car, RT2-181, being entered as an RT4 in 1980 and an RT2 in 1981 and beyond. And just maybe its chassis plate got altered as well - like mine - maybe at the factory? I've asked the current owner in Germany and he says there is no chassis plate but that's quite normal for old Ralts.

The other difference between the RT2 and RT4 is the tub is 3"-4" longer in the fuel cell area - presumably to carry enough fuel for F2 races compared with the shorter Atlantic races. Looking at a pic of that area, also attached to a following post, I can persuade myself that RT2-181 is the longer version like my RT2.

So it's beginning to look like 3 RT2s were built in 1979, all for Toleman. RT2-167 was the first one. Anyone got any info on the other numbers?

Then two were built and/or sold in 1980. RT2-172 to Bill Blackledge in the US (shipped with CanAm body) and RT2-181 to Bertram Schafer in Germany for Dougal in 1980, Winkelhock in 1981, etc.

Quite possibly all five tubs were built in 1979 (mine has no Arch Motors no.). Then when the later two were built/sold in 1980 Ralt used the simpler RT4 rear suspension (in production for the many RT4s) rather than the complex multi-tube and billet aluminium RT2 design.

Make sense?
Any other views?
Any more info on the chassis nos?

Thx a ton - Derek

[dereklola]

Small pic of "tea tray" on Winkelhock car in 1981.

[dereklola]

Small pic of fuel cell area on Winkelhock car in 1981.

[dereklola]

Here's a pic of my "tea tray" so you know why I call it that!

[Dan Rear]

Derek

Interesting, though from memory alone, I'm certain the Schafer car was entered in early 80 as an 'RT2', not an RT4. The only RT4 in F2 at that time, was the Mallock UK Atlantic car, entered occasionally in 81, then the ex-Leslie Atlantic (new in 80)by david Dufffield in 82-83.

Btw, have you, or anyone else, any info on the Stanley RT2 of early 81. I know I keep banging on about this, but its beginning to annoy me now ! Where did this car come from ???

[Jeremy Jackson]

Dan,

Schafer's car actually WAS entered as an RT4 in early 80, regardless of what it actually was. It's notation did change in 1981 entry lists. Stefan's excellent site at http://user.tninet.se/~aiq291w/F2_Index.htm shows the races.

Wyatt Stanley entered a TG280 in the first half of 1981, but the car never turned up to a race. Not sure about his Ralt in 1982

[Dan Rear]

Jeremy

Thanks for the link, very interesting stuff in the light of some of our recent posts.

I see that at the early 1980 German race, can't remember if Ring or Hock., 2 B48s were listed, as well as the Dauer car which finsihed 5th. these were for de Dryver and Willi Siller, I wonder what these were, though we know BdD was entered by RAM the previous year in one, but don't think ever started.

I also see my 'friend Wyatt' down for a Toleman, in 1981 Silverstone, but didn't start apparently. Are we to trust this, because Autocourse (usually very accurate I've found) definitely has him down in a Ralt, and I'm sure from memory A'Sport has this too, ie the Ralt.

At that time private F2 Ralts were pretty rare, which is why I've remembered it all this time, whereas in early 81, private Tolemans, or Lola T850s, were pretty common on the back of Henton/Warwick success in 80.

Any thoughts ??

[Jeremy Jackson]

Dan,

Difficult to know re Stanley in 1981, because as I mentioned above, it wasn't that he didn't start, he didn't turn up for a race.

(Siller DNArrive with that B48 entry, so not sure on that)

F1R gives Stanley's Ralt in 1982 as "RH6-278".

[Dan Rear]

Jeremy

A/Course definitely has Stanley starting and retiring in the 81 Int Trophy at Silverstone. I didn't get to that meet, did you, or do you still have the A/S report on it???


All good stuff this ain't it !!!

[dereklola]

Did Wyatt Stanley ever actually show up at a race? All his entries seem to show "DNA". Maybe he never actually owned a car - just kept thinking about F2 racing? Or maybe he (they, his team) just couldn't get everything together.

This would be consistent with him shown as Toleman TG280 in 1981 and variously Ralt RH6-Hart (whatever that mught have been) and RT4-Hart in 1982.

Looks like ambition more than reality to me.

[Jeremy Jackson]

First F2 race at Silverstone I went to was '82 unfortunately. Don't have an Autosport for this either, perhaps someone can confirm/deny Stanley's participation. I don't know if Stefan's site has purely used Sheldon's info for this race.

[Dan Rear]

Derek/Jeremy, I'll check A'Course again tonight to confirm WS was at the 81 Silverstone F2.

Dan

[IANHEB]

Dan,Derek and Ralt Fans
Just a bit of an update for you guys on the South African connection.The car that came here is RT2-152,which seems to be an earlier number than you envisaged Derek,and the chassis plate is completly different to the ones in your pictures.The "unfolded" tub,gearbox and corners still exist.
The car was copied for the locally built Lant,of which 5 were completed.The ex Ivano Moavero car is,as you say,in Ireland and the ex Billy Maloney car is for sale here at the moment.Its locally built gearbox is engraved Lant 003 in the same place that an FT200 would be stamped.The other 3 cars are retained by the Lahner family who built them.
The unfinished cars number about 8-12,but most are just bare tubs plus assorted local suspension and gearboxes.
Hope this helps,
Regards
IAN

[dereklola]

OK - one specific question for all you experts - can anyone find a chassis numbers for the Rad Dougal RT2 in 1979?

I think we agree on -
RT2-167 Brian Henton 1979
RT2-??? Rad Dougal 1979 (168-171 range?)
RT2-??? Toleman spare (168-171 range?)
RT2-172 Blackledge CanAm 1980 (now mine)
RT2-181 Cassani/Dougal 1980

All Ralt numbers were sequential from the first RT1 through to the last RT4s in 1987. This would explain the gaps above. For instance my RT4 (a very early one I've been told) is RT4-180 and it has an Arch Motors tub number of early 1980.

Back to the Cassani/Dougal car in 1980. Some of you say it was owned by Bertram Schafer at that time. Is this true? Or did he buy it for 1981 when he entered it for Winkelhock?

Derek

[Dan Rear]

Derek

My mistake on the 'German RT2', Jeremy's right it was Cassani in 80, I'll check whether it was Schafer in 81, or not. Could have been, as Schafer was a big Ralt fan as Cirrus confirms above.