The Greatest Grands Prix

[krt917]

MotorSport have published a list, as voted by their readership, of the 20 Greatest Grands Prix of the first 100 years of Grand Prix racing. Such a list will depend on what people feel consitutes great. Does a virtuoso perfromance by an individual constitue a great race? Or do you prefer a battle which involves many potential winners? It's just the sort of list that creates debate, so I thought I'd post it here and see what people think:

1. 1957 German GP
2. 1979 French GP
3. 1961 Monaco GP
4. 1967 Italian GP
5. 1971 Italoan GP
6. 1935 German GP
7. 1953 French GP
8. 1993 European GP
9. 1982 Monaco GP
10. 1914 French GP
11. 1986 Australian GP
12. 1990 Mexican GP
13. 1981 Spanish GP
14. 1970 Monaco GP
15. 1969 Italian GP
16. 2005 Japanese GP
17. 1968 German GP
18. 2003 British GP
19. 1976 US GP West
20. 1987 British GP

Fairly predictable choices, though I was surprised to see '76 US GP as I reckon there are quite a few candidates that could usurp it. What do people think of the list and, more importantly, which races would you consider adding?

[Steve Wilkinson]

1970 Belgian GP (Spa-Francorchamps) - Rodriguez & BRM at their finest!

1969 British GP (Silverstone) - Stewart & Rindt going hammer & tongs plus the 4 wheel drive cars acting as mobile chicanes!

1977 French GP (Dijon) - Andretti's dogged pursuit of Watson paying off on the very last lap!

[John Turner]

I'm also a little surprised at the 1976 US GP being in the list. The fact that it was the first GP at Long Beach doesn't make it great. In fact, I would have thought that John Watson's drive there in 1983, or at Detroit in 1982, made them both more meritorious of that description. In both races, on tight street circuits he drove (from 17th on the grid in 1982, and 22nd in 1983) through the field to score a great victory.

I always thought that the Nurburgring in 1962, when Graham Hill held off Gurney and Surtees in the wet, to win, was a bit special, too.

[D-Type]

How about the 1933 Monaco GP?- a race-long duel between Nuvolari and Varzi, two of the greatest drivers of the day. This race hardly ever gets mentioned because racing in those days didn't get the exposure it does now.

[ohazamiizugahar]

1965 Belgie GP Jim Clark best performance
1967 Italy GP Real motorsport
1961 Monaco GP Driver's technick beat machine performance

[chunder]

What about the 79 French GP with Arnoux and Villeneuve wheel to wheel for the last few lapos and Renault winnign there first race aswell wasn't it?

[krt917]

That's certainly a popular one, chunder, hence its 2nd place in the MotorSport list. I'm pretty sure most of the race was pretty ordinary, but those last three laps or so stick in people's minds as one of the iconic GP battles.

Originally Posted by D-Type

How about the 1933 Monaco GP?- a race-long duel between Nuvolari and Varzi, two of the greatest drivers of the day. This race hardly ever gets mentioned because racing in those days didn't get the exposure it does now.

D-Type, you must be psychic! I emailed three GPs to MotorSport for the list, and that was my number two. It was one of the first great duels and it lasted the entire race. The fact that they were each driving the defining GP cars of the pre-Silver Arrows period (Alfa and Bugatti) should only add to its reputation.

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

1969 British GP (Silverstone) - Stewart & Rindt going hammer & tongs plus the 4 wheel drive cars acting as mobile chicanes!

Good call. I suspect that it might have made the list had the fight lasted to the very end. If it had, my money would have been on Stewart due to his racecraft and ability to plan (winning the '69 Italian GP was a good example), but of course we'll never know.

[Steve Wilkinson]

1970 German GP - Hockenheimring. The first F1 GP at this circuit. A massive duel which started with Amon, Siffert, Regazzoni, Ickx and Rindt was slowly whittled down to just Ickx and Rindt. So it was Lotus versus Ferrari, Italy versus Germany and the crowd were on the edge of their seats. As the pair started the final lap Rindt ran wide at turn one. Ickx suddenly found himself in the lead with Rindt sat just behind waiting for his moment. It came under braking for the right hander into the stadium complex. With Rindt in the lead the partisan crowd went mental!

1982 Austrian GP - Osterreichring. The proper circuit! One week after the horrendous crash which saw Pironi's F1 career come to an end & Tambay win an emotional race, the circus moved to Austria. Tambay fell foul early on with a puncture. His drive back through the field to take a brilliant fourth having been dead last after his pit stop on lap two. Overshadowing all this was the drive of Keke Rosberg who chased down Elio de Angelis who inherited the lead when the second Renault expired. The last lap was nail-bitingly close with de Angelis winning by 0.125 seconds!

[ohazamiizugahar]

Originally Posted by chunder

What about the 79 French GP with Arnoux and Villeneuve wheel to wheel for the last few lapos and Renault winnign there first race aswell wasn't it?

This race is also my favourite race.
Both Arnoux and Villeneuve were fare and aggressive.

Different from Senna vs Prost.

[Roger Clark]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

So it was Lotus versus Ferrari, Italy versus Germany and the crowd were on the edge of their seats.

Were't Lotuses made in England?

I hadn't heard of the last lap incident you describe. Rindt was 0.9 seconds ahead at the end of lap 49 and 0.7 ahead at the end of the race. If Ickx did take the lead during the 50th lap he must have lost a lot of time somewhere. most reports said that Rindt had a lot in hand throughout the race and could overtake the Ferrari whenever he wished.

Of course, we don't really know the truth because Denis Jenkinson was watching a Formula 2 race at the place where the Grand Prix should have been.

[davyboy]

They've got all those I would consider greats up there. Monaco 1982 was fantastic edge of the seat stuff. I know I'm a little biased here because Derek Daly 'nearly' won it. Can you imagine if he had :-) I remember Murray Walker up to Mach 9 towards the end of the race.
That last lap slipstreaming through the Parabolica in 1971 and fan-out to Peter Gethin's photo-finish win was amazing too, you only get that in karting now... but the real essence of Formula 1 at its best was Dijon in 1979. Back then, it was inevitable that two of the wildest drivers ever would lock horns and when they did, Rene Arnoux and Gilles Villeneuve didn't disappoint. This reminds me, its so long since I've seen that race, I gotta get a hold of a tape of it to confirm how fabulous Formula One RACING can actually be.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Roger Clark

Were't Lotuses made in England?

I hadn't heard of the last lap incident you describe. Rindt was 0.9 seconds ahead at the end of lap 49 and 0.7 ahead at the end of the race. If Ickx did take the lead during the 50th lap he must have lost a lot of time somewhere. most reports said that Rindt had a lot in hand throughout the race and could overtake the Ferrari whenever he wished.

Of course, we don't really know the truth because Denis Jenkinson was watching a Formula 2 race at the place where the Grand Prix should have been.

The Italy versus Germany was in reference to the supporters not the cars!

Rindt did lead across the line but deliberately ran wide at Turn 1 to let Ickx through. He apparently wanted to be second on the run back into the stadium rather than let Ickx slipstream up behind! As you say Rindt had easily the fastest car in a straight line and as he could slice past the Ferrari under braking second place was the best place to be.

Another interesting factoid was to do with the prize money. At that race (possibly all the GPs that year I am not certain) there was prize money at quarter, half and three-quarter distance. Rindt led on all those laps! Chunky was a stickler for grabbing as much dosh as possible!

[ss_collins]

and the list missed the 57 french GP out - a race that autosport heralded the 'race of the century'.

[krt917]

Are you sure ss?

The race did provide us with one of the iconic Grand Prix photographs - Fangio drifting through the Rouen esses in his 250F - but I don't think it was particularly memorable otherwise. Musso and Behra both managed to get ahead of Fangio at the start, but the poleman was ahead by lap 4 and controlled the pace thereafter. Mike Lang ('Grand Prix - Volume 1 1950-1965') recounts that Collins then came through to take second, but had to slow due to gearbox problems, allowing Musso into back passed, which is how they finished. There were quite a number of retirements (7 finishers, only 3 on the lead lap) and it should perhaps be noted that the two drivers probably most capable of taking the fight to Fangio - Moss and Brooks - both had to miss the race for health reasons.

I must confess that my (rather large) short list that I came up with for this vote did not contain the 1957 French GP....

[ss_collins]

nope I made a boob - meant '53 (must read my own books!) - which is on the list - apparently there is footage of that race - god I#d love to see it

[Roger Clark]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Rindt did lead across the line but deliberately ran wide at Turn 1 to let Ickx through. He apparently wanted to be second on the run back into the stadium rather than let Ickx slipstream up behind! As you say Rindt had easily the fastest car in a straight line and as he could slice past the Ferrari under braking second place was the best place to be.

What is your source for that?

[krt917]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

nope I made a boob - meant '53 (must read my own books!) - which is on the list - apparently there is footage of that race - god I#d love to see it

Me too. There can't have been many races where Fangio fought wheel-to-wheel with another driver all the way to the flag and lost!

I've never rated Hawthorn in quite the same league as Fangio and Moss, but that performance (and the '55 TT in the D-Type) must rank as one of the greatest drives.

[zapparacing]

1979 French Grand Prix:
1st. Jean-Pierrie Jabouille
2nd. Gilles Villeneuve
3rd. Rene Arnoux

One of the best F1 battles I can remember seeing.

http://www.danerd.com/Show.php?vid=727#

I Googled it and found some video from the closing laps between Villeneuve and Arnoux....UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!

[AllonFS]

Another couple of Moss entries:
Argentine GP 59 or 60 I think: Tyres down to fabric as Moss takes first win for rear-engined GP cars (and don't mention Auto-Unions, you all know what I mean)
German GP 61: Another win for Moss in the old Cooper against the sharknose Ferraris. Superb driving and a bit of luck from the weather but still magnifcent.

[John Turner]

It was Argentina in 1958; he caught all the opposition on the hop because they expected him to come in for tyres, but, as you say, he stayed out with tyres practically worn through. By the time they had realised, it was too late.

Agree with Germany '61; another great Moss victory.

[krt917]

There are several Moss candidates, 1958 Argentina being one of the ones I believe you are referring to AllonFS. Rob Walker's team tricked the opposition by appearing to plan for a tyre change, but the Cooper wheels were unsuitable (i.e. the stop would have been too long) and Moss stayed out, whilst everyone else pitted. Using oil patches to try and preserve the tyres, he just held on for the first of his four World Championship GP wins that season. Moss was probably the only driver around at the time who could have done that, and he pulled it off again at Monza in 1959 (I suspect that got Enzo's attention!). It's also worth remembering that it wasn't even a full 2.5-litre Cooper he used in Argentina, either!

As for the 1970 German GP, I read Mike Lang's account of that yesterday. It certainly sounds like an exciting race, with several cars involved in the lead battle before Rindt and Ickx were left on their own. Lang comments that Rindt made the decisive move with two laps to go and held on thereafter. However, I'm unclear what sources he might have used for that race, so I'd be interested to know if you do have a source with an alternative account, Steve.

Drat, Dad beat me to it!

[AllonFS]

Thanks guys, 58 it was of course. Strangely it never seems to get a great deal of attention, but both for the actual drive and of course the huge significance of the car it really stands out for me. I wonder if it is because it happened in Argentina and therefore not many European commentators witnessed it?

[John Turner]

You're right; it does not get the level of acknowledgement or attention it merits.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Roger Clark

What is your source for that?

I was there!

[chunterer]

Fascinating to read the posts relating to the 50's and 60's!!

Admittedly this is an area that i would like to 'gen' up on a bit more!

Currently got a Moss book on the go, interesting insight into his early days as well as the period upto and after his awful accident at Goodwood.

As my history only really goes back as far as the late 70's and early 80's i'd like to think a few races from that era stand out.

Dijon '79 and Austria '82 are certainly worthy of any list but also
Gilles Jarama win in '81 was a demonstration of tactical driving from the top drawer from a guy who was only thought to be a pedal to the metal driver.

I also think that Mansell's Hungary win of '89 made for a gripping GP - his charge through the field to outfox Senna was thrilling.

Perhaps Paul Ricard 1990 is a good example too - drama at the start - good debut drives from 3 drivers at the time and Capelli oh so nearly clinching his first win after a good ploy to keep him out longer - before Prost gobbled him up near the end.

Estoril 1985 was surely a landmark race if not a truly classic GP?