John Webb on Club Racing

[Alan Raine]

I read an interesting article in Motor Sport this month on John Webb (of Brands fame and one of the originators of Formula Ford). -- He has some interesting comments on the state amateur racing today. I won't quote it all here for copyright reasons, but he is appalled that costs have risen because nearly every championship has it's own administration often employing people to run it. Despite this many are still running without full grids. He is of the opinion that the championships should be organised by the circuits themselves, as if anybody else does it they could be amateurs or have their own commercial interests. -- This seems to be what Castle Combe are doing and is possibly the reason that the WHT has become so successful. I can see why it's good for the circuits as it's in their interest to provide full grids and exciting racing but I'm not sure if I totally agree with the amateur bit as I'm sure the likes of Diz are not paid a lot (if anything) but do a bloody good job! As a final comment John Webb also is of the opinion that Jonathan Palmer is going to be good for British Motorsport. Time will tell!

[Steve Wilkinson]

I suspect John Webb will be proved right. He was a very shrewd operator and since his departure from MCD the circuits were slowly run down. Thankfully Jonathan Palmer who started with a Mod Prod Marcos in club racing will, I think, get the MSV circuits looking better than ever and restore the quality of British Club Motorsport - after all that is where all the great champions started!

[Alan Raine]

I don't think he was to impressed with how it was run after John Foulston died. He has a lot of respect for Jonathan Palmer as he is an entrepreneur who still loves motorsport.

[diz]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

I'm not sure if I totally agree with the amateur bit as I'm sure the likes of Diz are not paid a lot (if anything) but do a bloody good job!

What exactly is four fifths of sod all? Thanks for the vote of confidence Alan.
Why not pop along on Sunday to see the fruits of Diz's latest epic?
[I hasten to add with a lot of assistance from the BRSCC NW Centre]

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by diz

What exactly is four fifths of sod all? Thanks for the vote of confidence Alan.
Why not pop along on Sunday to see the fruits of Diz's latest epic?
[I hasten to add with a lot of assistance from the BRSCC NW Centre]

Was hoping to make it but have to work. Will be around next season as much as I can. If I can find some time and cash we might even have the car out!

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Thankfully Jonathan Palmer who started with a Mod Prod Marcos in club racing will, I think, get the MSV circuits looking better than ever and restore the quality of British Club Motorsport - after all that is where all the great champions started!

I hope so, but at what cost? Bringing these circuits up to scratch is not going to be a cheap job. Look at the plans for Snetterton. Unless the meetings are then advertised, nobody is going to come and watch. That only leaves the racers to pay for the improvements and the fees are enough as it is.

I think they need to look at the American way of doing things. A race circuit over in the states isn't just about motorracing. There is a whole carnival feel to them and while Dad is watching the racing, mum and the kids can be off doing other things.

I suppose if the racing is organised by the circuit, it would have to advertise as it wouldn't be getting circuit hire fees from an organising club and would rely on gate receipts. It will be really interesting to watch what happens at Combe this year.

[Ian Sowman]

It isn't just the racers that will pay for the Snetterton developments - it will be corporate users, track day drivers and so forth. The racing income will be relatively small, and that goes for most circuits.

I don't know how the set up at Combe, but I would imagine that the circuit will charge CCRC Ltd a hire fee.

[No 4]

Walshy, I think your absolutely right about the US approach. Until UK motorsport realises it's in the entertainment business and as such is competing for the £ in people's pockets with everything from cinemas to football to music concerts and everything in between. It will never attract big crowds on a regular basis.

However, motorsport accepting it is in the entertainment business is not enough, as these days people have more choice than ever and given many of these choices offer excellent facilities, food, comfortable seats, etc, standing at Redgate in the sleet and a biting wind just doesn't cut it. In short, upgraded track facilities are essential, but clearly this costs money.

In this context, racers, track days, corporate users will never provide the scale of revenues necessary to refurbish circuits to the standards that compare to say a Premiership football club. Therefore, the money has to come from corporate investment. However, venture capital companies and the like will not put money into motorsport, unless they see it acting like a business that understands it has to present a well rounded, entertainment package.

With the latter point in mind, the only soultion is a radical rethink of the structure of motorsport. Club enthusiast racing (which should be protected, as it's the life blood of the sport and often where new young talent comes from), needs to be seperated from national/international showcase championships; which in themselves need to move from being populated by largely amateur, unpaid drivers, to being a fully professional sport - rather like rugby union did a few years ago. In this way

I know this comment may upset a few die hards, but I believe it is the only way forward. I never thought I'd say this, but to give Peter Wardle and his Challenge Initiative due credit - they do understand the need to change. Whether he will get the series off the ground, now thta's another matter!!

[Triple J Motorsport]

Snett will have a business park, hotel, hold conferences etc and is based on getting local authority money because of job creation visitors spending in the area etc etc

[Walshy]

Exactly.

As does the likes of Manchester United and Old Trafford football ground. Hotels etc.

But it's the promotional side of things that has to be sold right. Your right that Motorsport has to compete with a diversity of Pop concerts to football matches, but as a spectacle, it has to be up there with the best of them. And the thing that miffs me more than any other at the moment, is that Motorsport is more accessable to the masses than it ever has been. I think it's fair to say, that motor racing in the past was classed as more of a sport for the wealthy, some of this was down to the fact that not many people could get to the circuits as they never owned cars. These days, anyone can go anywhere and it is all accessable.

I have alluded to this in past threads, but I work in an office tower in Manchester with over 4000 staff and I can guarantee, that over 2/3rds of the people there, don't know that Oulton Park is only down the road and the rest don't know that there are meetings there nearly every weekend.

The racing needs to be promoted and promoted well. One of the best days at Oulton Park in recent times was when Stoke Radio had a family day there. There was fairs and stalls and the radio roadshow and it attracted a huge crowd. Families were kept entertained while Dad watched the racing.

There is something fundamentaly wrong. Cars are the world to most young lads (and girls) these days. They spend millions of pounds a year on magazines and accessories. They watch Top Gear and 5 Gear every week. There is an obvious love of cars and all things to do with cars, so why are these people not coming through the gates at race circuits?

[Stephen Green]

Very true Walshy!

I believe that John Webb is (or was) working for MSV as a consultant. I mentioned the old Radio 1 days out to JP when we were chatting at the marshals track day last December, reminding him that although the people got in for free, they spent lots of money while inside the gates. One of his worries was that MSV would have to employ a lot of extra staff to cope with a big crowd, but have no direct income to help pay the wages. This to me is where lets say Brands Hatch Racing Club comes into its own as he can be the circuit owner, promotor and recipient of income all in one.

What has become very evident is that MSV have already spent a great deal on improving their circuits and making them spectator friendly. Without wishing to upset any BRDC members, I find it very sad that if you pay £100 to watch the British GP at Silverstone, unless you have managed to buy a hugely expensive grandstand ticket, you are in many cases expected to sit or stand on shale banking.

[Alan Raine]

I also live and work around Manchester and very rarely do you see any promotion for Oulton Park and any coverage in the local press is non exsistant. The odd driver does a bit of self promotion but that's about it. In the 80's I did the meeting at Brands, as a driver, that was sponsored by the Sun who gave away free tickets. The place was heaving and the circuit still made money by selling Grandstand tickets and food and drink.

[Stephen Green]

There were several days like that at BH. Sun free day, Evening Standard free day, Radio 1 day out and latterly Capital Radio has done the odd meeting.

[Alan Raine]

Just to show how old I am! I marshalled at the Radio 1 day at Mallory Park when they had the Bay City Rollers there. Place was full of screaming kids which eventually disrupted the racing. Was a bit of a disaster but hit the news headlines at the time. I doubt if the kids ever came back, although their dads might have done. How successful are the Rockingham days when they mix racing with music?

[Dave Brand]

Picking up on the publicity issue, the best-publicised meeting at Oulton this year was the VSCC! They got two half-page features in the Manchester Evening News, one about a fortnight before the event & the other a day or two before, a preview on the local BBC1 news programme (probably on Granada reports as well) & several mentions on BBC GMR. If the VSCC can do, why can't other clubs? It appears to me that news organisations, particularly at local level, don't really go looking for news, but they will happily use anything that's fed to them.

[Walshy]

Dave. Nail on the head. My point exactly.....

You have to feed these people the news. Let them know what's happening.

How many car dealerships in the Manchester and Cheshire area could have their own supported race meeting at Oulton Park for not a huge outlay. It gives them a captive audience too.

I'm no media guru by any stretch of the imagination, but law of averages say that if you gave away 100 free tickets and all 100 came back across the gate, if you had put a good day on, then I'll wager 10% will come back and pay next time.

Do that 10 times a year and all of a sudden, you attracted another 100 punters. Ona regular club meet, that's £1500 per day and these people have friends that they tell. They buy burgers and drinks..........

The local TV station (Granada) have their own channel dedicated to Men & Motors, yet no local championships on there. Why? Because (as I understand it), they have to pay for rights to film!!!!!!!! Why not encourage them to come and film????? You have to open up all media trails you can.

As cheesey as it sounds, speculate to accumulate...

[diz]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

......... that was sponsored by the Sun who gave away free tickets. The place was heaving ..........

It doesn't always work. I got the Sun on board for an Aintree meeting in the 70s' offering "BOGOF with the voucher in the paper".
We got four vouchers redeemed. I suppose those eight people never came back, because there weren't any floppity woppity Page 3 girls present. The only tits were driving the Formula Fords.
But anything is worth a go to get the punteroonies through the gate.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Walshy

How many car dealerships in the Manchester and Cheshire area could have their own supported race meeting at Oulton Park for not a huge outlay. It gives them a captive audience too.

.....as Bluebell did in August; they invited loads of cartoon Mini drivers along to see real Minis racing & let them have a few laps around the circuit (behind a 'pace car' - slowest I've ever seen Ken Tyrer drive!). It works in several ways - a perk for the car buyer, probably sells a car or two & gets people into a race meeting. Maybe we could get a local Ford dealer to sponsor a NWFF meeting!

[Walshy]

It would need the circuit to waiver any fees as well though.

I think they charge something along the lines of a traders licence.

[Redlake27]

I don't think it is about groups wanting to profit from racing that is the issue. To be profitable, you have to have a successful business model. And successful businesses usually benefit all involved more than an unsuccesful model...........

I think it is more about getting all parties involved to connect for mutual benefit.

The aim of the Dunlop Great and British Festivals is to get the championship organisers (ie: Ginetta, Radical, Mini), the raceday organisers (BARC), a track day operator and the circuit owner to work together to create a weekend that benefits all.

Its not rocket science, but it does get around the fundamental disconnect that hampers the promotion of race events. That is:

The circuit gets most of its profit from the circuit hire to a club, not from the gate.
The club doesn't get any revenue from the gate.
The event sponsor (if any) usually is focused on corporate guests and has no real reason to attract public in.

And the three parties rarely work together.

But there are promising signs. I mention Great and British, because I'm involved, but beyond that more race meetings are being organised by people that are interested in both competitors and spectators.

BARC taking ownership of Mallory, in addition to Thruxton and Pembrey, the Combe Club, and MSV heading towards running their own meetings as well as working a lot more closely with other clubs is just the start of something more promising.

Many groups are packaging race events so they can be targeted and explained to the public in a soundbite. This isn't just about TOCA or Great and British, but is also true of Top Hat, Goodwood Revival, Superbikes and more.

I think we are getting better. Whether it be the revival in BTCC coverage, MSV promotion of their own events, the new Castle Combe structure or Diz's Anglesey event, they are all tightly packaged, offer good promotion, some TV and an appreciation from all parties as to what consitutes value.

OK, other groups have a lot to learn. SRO's 'promotion' this year of F3/GT has been appalling, with more personnel in the paddock than spectators at Silverstone, Croft and Mondello in particular, which is an embarassment considering the serious investment in the future F1 stars on the bill.

But I see enough out there to be optimistic that the worst period of national motorsport promotion is behind us.

[R59]

So the big issue is that to make a go of it, get the punters in, etc.. the circuits themselves have to run their own meetings, ie: CCRC, BHRC, etc... where they don't actually pay a circuit hire fee (maybe some ficticious figure on paper), but they promote the event to get as many people through the gate as possible to earn as much money as possible, and repeat ad infinitum until the world is rosy.

This, in my opinion, will lead to the end of the BRSCC as they are now, who are really there for the sport and making money out of it. They may have to take a step down the scale, and join the likes of the 750MC, and the like, with much lower profile meetings.

Championships which are spectator friendly - one's which "wow" the majority/whole of the crowd, not a few "enthusiasts", will be on the big billing. Those that don't "wow" the crowd will either carry on quietly behind closed doors, or whither and die.

Rob.

[DriversKnow]

Originally Posted by racing59

Championships which are spectator friendly - one's which "wow" the majority/whole of the crowd, not a few "enthusiasts", will be on the big billing. Those that don't "wow" the crowd will either carry on quietly behind closed doors, or whither and die.

Rob.

I agree, and don't think this is a bad thing. If we want to get spectatators through the gate we need to have quickfire action, sideshows and a packed programme. This will suit some racers, and not others.

However, some championships are not promotable to the public but offer a great environment for the racer/engineer. If these end up running behind closed doors at 'cheaper' race events, then probably everyone will be happy. After all, track days are often full and don't have spectators.......

[Steve Wilkinson]

The only reason race tracks run track days is to gain revenue.

As Track Days do not constitute a competitive event they are currently exempt from planning permission.

The problem a lot of tracks have is that they are limited on the number of competitive days they are allowed to operate.

If this block was removed you would probably see more racing dates at all circuits and a lot fewer track days.

I suspect what the general public want to see is close competitive racing. What seems to get the most spectators nowadyas probably isn't. So it is a matter of publicity and education.

One of the best ways that MCD use to attract more spectators was the season pass. After all despite the income being less it did come in a big chunk early in the year plus the season ticket holder would also spend on each visit. When the season ticket was withdrawn I would be more selective in my attendancies at Oulton Park going to the meetings that had previously been the most entertaining.

I suspect the new owners will be very succesful in promoting their portfolio of venues and I wouldn't be surprised if they were to acquire more tracks over the course of the next few years. Motor Sport Vision will I believe turn out to be the best thing that has happened to British Club Racing for decades.

[Andrew Kitson]

The biggest problem I think is the number of meetings and series/championships. Most have under 20 cars on the grid and far less, they need to cull and combine classes and reduce the amount of meetings. Too many vested interests and too many boring processional one-make series.

The BTCC, F3 ( main single seater class ) and top sportscar class (GT) need to run together at 10 heavily promoted meetings that the casual fan can recognise as 'British National Motor Racing'. Racing cars generally come under 3 catagories - single seater, touring/saloon and sports/GT. The cream should be together. The sportscar class needs to expand though as a mini 'Le Mans' with the possibility of Le Mans prototypes to compete, the sort of cars the casual fan can recognise as racing at the famous 24 hr event as a British LMES type of thing. A one hour 2 driver race would do the trick.

Back these series up with a rotation of good close championships from the rest, Minis, FF etc with the odd old Historic Gp car race, either 50s/60s/TGP etc to represent the history. Sideshows/air displays then need to be added to keep kids and Mum entertained.

Look at Santa Pod. 20,000+ crowds per meeting, fun fair, kids face painting, on track demos, shops and stalls galore, live music, aerobatics. Lots to see and do if it rains or the kids get bored. Good camping facilities for those who want to make a weekend of it. Always well supported.

I spend a lot of time around Snetterton. I am amazed at the number of people I meet who have never been, yet live only a few miles away. Most think it has two meetings per year, BTCC and Superbikes yet is probably the busiest circuit of all! But they all knew of the Willhire 24 hour event. That always drew a big crowd as it was heavily promoted on local TV/Radio and papers.

To them, Snetterton means the Sunday market, they will happily get out of bed early to get a bargain but tempting them to drive another 200 yards through the circuit gates is far harder. Lack of promotion and due to modern noise limits, even when a meeting is on it is rarely heard from the market!

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kitson

I spend a lot of time around Snetterton. I am amazed at the number of people I meet who have never been, yet live only a few miles away. Most think it has two meetings per year, BTCC and Superbikes yet is probably the busiest circuit of all! But they all knew of the Willhire 24 hour event. That always drew a big crowd as it was heavily promoted on local TV/Radio and papers.

To them, Snetterton means the Sunday market, they will happily get out of bed early to get a bargain but tempting them to drive another 200 yards through the circuit gates is far harder. Lack of promotion and due to modern noise limits, even when a meeting is on it is rarely heard from the market!

I am always amazed by the number in the market and not in the track surely an ideal cross market:- Mum and girls shopping while Dad and son watching the cars. Donington has a market next door too in fact there is a gate between the two at Lodge.