JV - beaten by Button again

jackyo123 · 22 Jul 2003, 16:03 (Ref:668509)

Whats going on with JV this year? I had fully expected him to blow Button into the weeds. And after all his talk about having 'a weak' teammate, he obviously expected it as well.

Maybe he is not getting any support from his team anynmore - something is definitely up with him.

Look at his laptimes, lap by lap, for the last few Gp's - button is consistently putting in better inlaps, outlaps, and is running more faster laps than JV (though JV still seems to be able to produce a 'faster' race lap than Button). Clearly Jacques still has the speed - as evidenced by his fastest lap in Britain being respectable - but he is not sustaining it, Schumacher style, for lap after lap. Too inconsistent.

I think this may be his last year in F1, unless he can up his game, quickly.

ralf fan · 22 Jul 2003, 17:14 (Ref:668570)

Welcome to the forum Jackyo.
I think the problem with JV is that he still thinks he is a world championship contender and hence he doesnot like to be in positions where he cannot fight for points . When he finds himself in these positions he just loses interest and more often than not spins off. Like we saw in Silverstone once he was passed by Michael ,Jenson who was around 4 secs behind Villneuve got passed him .
It must be hard for Jacques , you know pole in his first race,champion in his second year in F1, and now in a midfield team getting pounded by a younger team mate.

Jay · 22 Jul 2003, 17:58 (Ref:668594)

yeah, I remember even when he was fighting for the championship he'd have a tendancy to give up if he did not have the car to win on a particular day. He was ten times more likely to spin off or have some kind of failure when his car was in a position other than the lead, or was not challenging for the lead.

**Bononi** · 22 Jul 2003, 18:04 (Ref:668602)

Welcome Jackio123. Just browse the forum and you'll see many threads about JV's downhill, I guess he's in the highlights over here in the last months...

Armco Bender · 22 Jul 2003, 20:26 (Ref:668761)

Last race he was dicing with the Minardis,this race he was dicing(blocking)with the Ferraris,so obviously he's improving.

BootsOntheSide · 22 Jul 2003, 21:05 (Ref:668796)

Firstly, his spin at Silverstone was caused by brake porblems, so we can't really blame him for that. Silverstone was a really competitive drive form him, but he should've beaten Button with such a big qualifying gap. Contract time might be making him drive a bit harder. I think his motivation has faded,a dn maybe he would like a fresh start in another team. Will he get one though? It's far from certain.

Gaz · 22 Jul 2003, 21:09 (Ref:668802)

Behave, his blocking of JB at Silverstone was disgraceful and I'm sure if it had been the other way round we wouldn't have heard it down for the rest of the season.

Was great to see Button leapfrog him and beat him. JB starting from the back of the grid and had to cue up behind Villenauve during the second safety car period and he still beat him!

He aint good enough, he never has been. He won the world title in a car 10 times better than the rest of the opposition, big deal.

In past seasons yep perhaps the motivation wasn't there but even JV says it is this year as he has a fairly competitive car. Not to mention the fact that I'm sure he wants to put Button in his place.

If I was a team manager I'd send him on his way and delve into the market of very talented drivers that are out there looking for a seat and would do a much better job than Villenauve.

Brake problems? Excuses to me it seems he was just trying that hard to catch up to Button and have a go on the last lap he locked up and spun off. It rings true as he must have been fuming at Jense being were he was

joe rossi · 22 Jul 2003, 22:23 (Ref:668855)

I think the fact that Craig Pollock is willing to "entertain offers" from NASCAR teams for next year says it all..

Snrub · 22 Jul 2003, 22:45 (Ref:668867)

I'm definately starting to think that JV doesn't have all he use to have.

blackx · 22 Jul 2003, 23:44 (Ref:668900)

I must agree with Gaz on this one..........
JV won the title in a car that was the class of the field and since then has done dip........
Button can and does drive him into the tarmac.........
Good on ya JB...............

jetsetter · 23 Jul 2003, 03:04 (Ref:668983)

JV's blocking of Button was uncalled for & unnecessary & was signs of a driver under severe pressure.

RaceFreak · 23 Jul 2003, 03:29 (Ref:668997)

Jetsetter:

A wise and profound assessment. Absolutely true.

TeddyG · 23 Jul 2003, 04:56 (Ref:669025)

Quote:

Originally posted by Gaz
[B]
He aint good enough, he never has been. He won the world title in a car 10 times better than the rest of the opposition, big deal.

rigggggggght that's why there were no less than 6 different GP winners in 1997 (the most we have had since this year now that Rubens has won)

I think that tells me that it was a pretty damn comptetitive year Gaz, more competitive than most world champions have had to deal with at any rate! Renault had pretty much pulled out of F1 that year and was not developing their engine so having a car 10 times better than the rest of the field are comments that should be reserved for champions like Shumacher, not Villeneuve.

With reguard to the blocking move on Button, even Brundle said that that is what racing is all about folks! And if you were to penalise every driver for moves like that you would have half the grid with drive through penalties. So there you have it a former F1 driver said it was legit so shut it guys!
Anyways if you take away moves like that what kind of racing are we left with?

Not to mention that it was a cheap move by Button anyways, he attempted his one and only move while JV was letting Micheal through after holding him off for god knows how many laps. Button tried to sneak through with MS and JV shut the door! I thought it was a great move that few drivers are capable of pulling off! After that JV pulled away and Button never had another passing attempt (he passed JV in the pits - as JV had the slower stop)

Button also didn't hold up Michael or Ralf at all while JV took it to them! Granted he chewed up his breaks doing so (which caused his spin) but I think he showed us that he's the real fighter in the team and can still mix it up with the best.

IMO Jenson got the point but JV got the moral victory at Silverstone.

corkholio · 23 Jul 2003, 05:37 (Ref:669036)

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyG
rigggggggght that's why there were no less than 6 different GP winners in 1997 (the most we have had since this year now that Rubens has won)

I think that tells me that it was a pretty damn comptetitive year Gaz, more competitive than most world champions have had to deal with at any rate! Renault had pretty much pulled out of F1 that year and was not developing their engine so having a car 10 times better than the rest of the field are comments that should be reserved for champions like Shumacher, not Villeneuve.

That's because JVil found ways to throw wins away. Schumacher has demonstrated that he can get results in inferior cars. JVil has not demonstrated any signs of being able to win in an inferior car, and has demonstrated that he can throw away results in both inferior and superior car for no other reason than to stroke his own ego such was the case at Silverstone.

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyG
With reguard to the blocking move on Button, even Brundle said that that is what racing is all about folks! And if you were to penalise every driver for moves like that you would have half the grid with drive through penalties. So there you have it a former F1 driver said it was legit so shut it guys!
Anyways if you take away moves like that what kind of racing are we left with?

Racing where you can expect your teammate to intentionally run you off the track while you are alongside him?

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyG
Not to mention that it was a cheap move by Button anyways, he attempted his one and only move while JV was letting Micheal through after holding him off for god knows how many laps. Button tried to sneak through with MS and JV shut the door! I thought it was a great move that few drivers are capable of pulling off! After that JV pulled away and Button never had another passing attempt (he passed JV in the pits - as JV had the slower stop)

Button also didn't hold up Michael or Ralf at all while JV took it to them! Granted he chewed up his breaks doing so (which caused his spin) but I think he showed us that he's the real fighter in the team and can still mix it up with the best.

Button tries to race (cleanly I might add) but he is a pussy. JVil can't stand being beat by his "weak" teammate once again but he is a fighter. And Button got out ahead of JVil not because of the pitstop. It was because Button's pace was far superior to JVil's which was supported by their in and out laps.

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyG
IMO Jenson got the point but JV got the moral victory at Silverstone.

Button: 20th to 8th, 1 pt. JVil: screwed up his own and almost his teammate's, 9th to 10th. Well, I guess it is a moral victory for JVil since at Silverstone he screwed up his own race battling with the better Italian team.

Wrex · 23 Jul 2003, 05:56 (Ref:669041)

Quote:

Originally posted by Armco Bender
Last race he was dicing with the Minardis,this race he was dicing(blocking)with the Ferraris,so obviously he's improving.

I think they call that a one race memory

**Peter Mallett** · 23 Jul 2003, 06:09 (Ref:669048)

JV was a good racer. On Sunday he showed us that he can still play with the best and his move on Jensen was brutal but I believe it was racing and I don't hear any complaints from the "boy".

However to say that Jensen shouldn't try to take advantage of another move is pathetic in the extreme. Senna, Prost, Mansell and many others have learned that if you can't get past under your own steam, take advantage of somebody else!

And if Jensen was the loser on Sunday he certainly made more of his race than JV did.

Sadly I believe this is JV's last season in F1. I hope he gets a drive elsewhere because he is certainly a talent. But BAR should now be setting its sights on pushing Button to the fore and developing his obvious talent in order to move up the grid.

Irv the Swerve · 23 Jul 2003, 06:44 (Ref:669065)

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyG

Not to mention that it was a cheap move by Button anyways, he attempted his one and only move while JV was letting Micheal through after holding him off for god knows how many laps. Button tried to sneak through with MS and JV shut the door! I thought it was a great move that few drivers are capable of pulling off! After that JV pulled away and Button never had another passing attempt (he passed JV in the pits - as JV had the slower stop)

Can't agree with any of this at all.
First of all, it wasn't a cheap move - I don't even know what a cheap move is but fighting for position on the circuit is the game and if you lose out then so be it. You reckon JV is a fighter, but then that he let Mick through. It wasn't that many laps that he managed to keep him behind - it was a few, 5 or 6 tops I'd say, although I stand corrected if need be.
I don't know what the great move that few drivers are capable of pulling off, surely not the little dink that kept Button back. Any driver in any championship can throw a shape like that. If that is the greatest racer we have then we are in a bad way. Corkholio is right abut Button too, he was hardly going to stick the nose in, but he did beat JV in the end.

To be honest, I prefer JV over Button any day, but JB is able to beat him almost any way he wants at this stage. Even when Jacques is ahead, Button can just hang back and wait for the brainpower to run low. If there was a No.1 and No.2 at BAR - which one do you think JV would be?

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 08:49 (Ref:669141)

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyG
After that JV pulled away and Button never had another passing attempt (he passed JV in the pits - as JV had the slower stop)

J. Button: 43"390 (lap 12), 32"029 (lap 42)
J. Villeneuve: 35"743 (lap 12), 32"827 (lap 41) - that's a difference of .798 in pit stop times... and you claim that Jacques had pulled away from Jenson. Not a lot of sense there matey. Jenson overtook him in the stops by making up three or four seconds during that crucial pitstop phase - he didn't go near him to overtake because the firstt time he had a look he nearly got swerved off the track!

TeddyG · 23 Jul 2003, 09:54 (Ref:669187)

Whatever...true race fans saw that JV was the better racer of the day. Bottom line JV took it to Michael and Ralf but they both passed Button with ease! To me it shows JV is a great fighter...one thing I love about JV is that he understands something a lot of other drivers don't; that people come to races and watch them on TV because they want to be ENTERTAINED and NOT watch a procession where stategy is all there is and people only get passed in the pits!
Say all you want...the point is Button boy couldn't get round JV wheel to wheel and he couldn't hold up Michael or Ralf for any real amount of time.
But go ahead if you love "Ralf-racing" then sure Button won the day. And it was sooooo exciting the way he did it too

TeddyG · 23 Jul 2003, 10:02 (Ref:669197)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
J. Button: 43"390 (lap 12), 32"029 (lap 42)
J. Villeneuve: 35"743 (lap 12), 32"827 (lap 41) - that's a difference of .798 in pit stop times... and you claim that Jacques had pulled away from Jenson. Not a lot of sense there matey.

Well actually it does by pulling away from Jenson I mean from one or two tenths behind (overtaking range) to six or seventh tenths behind. After all they are in (supposedly) the same cars so it's not like either one could pull too far ahead of the other.

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen

he didn't go near him to overtake because the firstt time he had a look he nearly got swerved off the track!

Well if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen, matey!

And as someone said earlier Butt boy hasn't said anything negative about the move so obviously it was legit by everyone except "real racing" race fans.

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 10:04 (Ref:669202)

I thought coming from the back of the grid to 8th was pretty exciting - I wouldn't call that Ralf racing.

Your only answer when pulled-up for bull-sh!tting is "whatever". That's clever. Great thinking.

True race fans saw that he was better? Huh? I am a true race fan - not a fan who only sees one driver. When Button fell off in Brazil you were full of how JV was so great becase he showed maturity and caution (thereby conveniently side-stepping the fact that prior to coming off Button had comprehensively out-raced Villeneuve) - now you want to say that throwing caution to the wind is more important than finishing and scoring. Make your mind up. Oh - I forgot, your mind is alreay made up... whatever Jacques does is best.

ASCII Man · 23 Jul 2003, 10:05 (Ref:669203)

Butt boy...

Sorry...

TeddyG · 23 Jul 2003, 10:06 (Ref:669206)

Now your getting it

...true I am a bit blinded in my support of JV and I suppose I am reaching a bit with the pit-stop stuff...still JV took it to Michael and Ralf and it was great to see...Button didn't and I don't think many people appreciate that fact.

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 10:09 (Ref:669211)

I'm not complaining about the move either - it was just so much easier to pass in the stops because Jenson's pace was so much better than JV's.

ASCII Man · 23 Jul 2003, 10:10 (Ref:669212)

And we all know how exciting overtaking in the pits can be, eh?

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