Bye Bye Green & Yellow

[b1ackcr0w]

A wise man once said "Any nation which forgets it's history, has no future, and does not desrve one".

Bearing this in mind, I wonder if there any lessons to be learned from the creation, use and recent withdrawl of the Black and Yellow Flag. I'm interested to guage how you all feel about the situation now that it's been taken out of use.

Is it safer now? Should we have persevered with it longer?

[b1ackcr0w]

Just realised I called it the Green and Yellow. DUH! It's been a long day

[MikeM]

I think it was a good flag when properly used, especially for short club type races. It didn't always work but because it wasn't used properly so the answer shouldn't have been to dump it.

[graeme]

Worked very well in my experience, but people didn't always know how to deal with it (including the CoC who said that everyone should slow to 50mph...)

[petestenning]

A problem we have now is a car in a dodgy position
could have been moved under a black and yellow,
but now we have little choice but to go red
We still need to go red if we have a driver in a car, or on fire , and on the edge of gravel traps.
It is the drivers who can avoid having red flags so often if a little bit of thought went into why we have to red. Having said that accidents beyond any ones control will happen as we all know.
The black and yellow did not always work, but it was a helpful thing to have as backup.
I am not having a go at drivers, just to say some
incidents could be avoided.
This is my own personal point of view
.
Regards
Pete

[Tracey]

I thought it a good idea, but I think some marshals didn't know how it should be used properly. I've seen it go out around a circuit, get to the incident, and then go no further. Maybe simpler instructions with no ambiguity might have helped.

[Tim Falce]

I am glad it is gone, but only because some drivers didn't know how to react to it or didn't want to know how to react to it.
Maybe better education was in order rather than defeatism.

[Kidzer]

Erm...what was the Black and Yellow flag used for?

[petestenning]

Black and yellow quartered was used to neutralise
a race, so an incident could be cleared allowing the race to continue without the need to stop it,
a bit like a full course yellow.

[bluebeard]

shame its gone, was excellent idea from John Nicol, only problem seem to be education in its use.

[Peter Harding]

Seem good and bad in this flag. Generally, when it failed, it was some driver not understanding and either pack not slowing enough or someone down the field slowing when he/she shouldn't.
It almost always failed in long races/driver change races as, when it came out, drivers went into pits and no-one knew who to follow or who to show green flag to.
It worked best if drivers got a specific briefing on it that morning but we can't keep doing that.
The other problem is, when we had an incident early in a race, it was often used when cars were already bunched up. Maybe previously we would have moved the obstruction in that gap when later we waited until the B/Y was out and cars under control?
Slightly sad it's gone but no real problems so far this year.

[johngee]

I understand that the main reason that the Black/Yellow flag was not continued was NOT because it didn't always work but because the UK was the only country that used it.
There was a view that, with the increasing number of drivers from overseas, even at National level meetings, it was more important to have complete continuity of flag signals throughout the world.
It was a bit like an adjustable spanner in your toolbox - didn't always work but, when it did, you were jolly grateful for it!

[johngee]

Bluebeard
Good that John Nicol is still remembered. The best Clerk of the Course this country ever had!

[Dutch chap]

I’m one of those who deeply admire John Nicol. Since it was him who invented this ‘silly flag’ it can’t have been a bad signal.
From what I’ve experienced it sometimes worked fine and on other occasions it was messed up completely. Like others have stated before me, this came from ignorance from marshals, drivers and even CoC’s who didn’t understood how the B&Y was supposed to work. Shame!

[Dutch chap]

I understand that the main reason that the Black/Yellow flag was not continued was NOT because it didn't always work but because the UK was the only country that used it.

John,

I don’t think this is true. British flagging rules still differ from what’s used in the rest of the world (=FIA rules), so that can’t be the reason. BTW, I never said FIA rules are better than British club rules.

[D_Marshall]

Instead of the black and yellow flag, why can't we just use a safety car? I'm not a marshal (apart from my surname ) and i only have one years racing experience so i may be oblivious to good reasons why not, but nearly all drivers know how a safety car works and the lead driver doesn't have to worry about controlling the pace. Also the marshal's don't have the problem of knowing when to bring their flags in.

[KayBee]

Originally posted by D_Marshall
Instead of the black and yellow flag, why can't we just use a safety car? I'm not a marshal (apart from my surname ) and i only have one years racing experience so i may be oblivious to good reasons why not, but nearly all drivers know how a safety car works and the lead driver doesn't have to worry about controlling the pace. Also the marshal's don't have the problem of knowing when to bring their flags in.

I asked about this at a recent marshal's training day and was told that you can only use a safety car if there are cameras at the circuit.

Following on this also applies to the use of snatch vehicles - no cameras, no snatch vehicles.



PS I think that the flag should be used as the Safety Car flag and the Safety Car boards binned then you'll be able to distinguish between the incident and the Safety car crocodile.

[johngee]

The use of Safety Cars is not dependant on having cameras round the circuit but they're still not the perfect solution.
1. The car has to be suitably equipped with lights, signs and pass scrutineering - beyond the resources of many clubs.
2. The car must be driven by a person with the appropriate competition licence (e.g. Nat A meeting - Nat A licence). Also must be suitably dressed. - again beyond most club's resources to find a qualified driver prepared to remain in or near the safety car, 'suited and booted' for the duration of racing. (I know from bitter expereience, how difficult it is to find someone).
3. Also need an observer in the car, with the driver, with radio who knows what they're doing. Again, difficult to find anyone willing AND with the right experience.
Even with all that, safety cars can still go wrong, just as the Black & Yellow did, if the drivers don't know/obey the rules.
If drivers just obeyed the yellow flag rules, LIKE THEY DID 30/40 YEARS AGO. none of this would be a problem!!!!!! (I'm begining to sound like Victor Meldrew!)

[johnw]

Originally posted by petestenning
....a bit like a full course yellow.

Probably a million reasons, but why can't we use a full course yellow?
I've was never in a race with a B/Y, but if one was shown, I would guarantee that half our folks wouldn't know how to react.
We all know what yellows are, so the only issue would be educating drivers to slow to acceptable levels. Draconian punishments would soon fix this.
Harsh but true?
John

[Flagman]

but why can't we use a full course yellow

The reason for needing a separate flag was to differentiate between a Full Course Yellow (B&Y) and an ordinary yellow flag situation.

If you try to use the yellow flag to indicate a FCY, then how does the flag marshal on a post tell if it is FCY and not just the advance warning for a waved yellow, and not promote a simple yellow flag incident into a FCY by accident.

As johngee states - the sooner we get back to real flagging with drivers understanding and obeying the yellow flag the better. If in the short term it means throwing half the field out of the results to hammer the point home then tough.

Incidently - there are classes where the drivers seem more able to understand the principals better than others - and there does seem to me to be some form of inverse correlation between the size of the budgets/sponsorhip for the championship and the level of compliance with the yelow flag regs.

[johnw]

Originally posted by Flagman
If you try to use the yellow flag to indicate a FCY, then how does the flag marshal on a post tell if it is FCY and not just the advance warning for a waved yellow, and not promote a simple yellow flag incident into a FCY by accident.

I don't know, but presumably a full course yellow is communicated to all posts by race control, starting at the incident and moving in both directions
If you guys currently put out a static yellow for an advanced waved yellow warning, the preceding post doesn't follow suit does it?

[Flagman]

but presumably a full course yellow is communicated to all posts by race control, starting at the incident and moving in both directions

This only works if you have got radios on every post or a lot of phones - Mrs Flagman says it can take several minutes for race control to phone round every post on a circuit like Donington.

If you guys currently put out a static yellow for an advanced waved yellow warning, the preceding post doesn't follow suit does it?

No, but if you where also using the yellow for FCY then you for a FCY you would be - hence the possibility of confusion.

[johnw]

Thanks Flagman
How does a red flag get communicated then? Is this to startline then all other posts follow suit?

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but I've always assumed that all the posts are in contact with Race control.
I know a man with homing pigeons!

[Flagman]

Correct about the red.

East Midlands Airport would probably complain about the pigeons...

[Wedgie]

The dropping of the black/yellow from the Blue book was discussed at the Scottish Motor Racing Club Training Day in March. Someone indicated that it was still possible for an organising club, in this case the SMRC, to request that the MSA allow the club to continue using the black/yellow flag under some sort of dispensation.

Someone from the SMRC was supposed to contact the MSA to find out if this was possible. As yet I, a mere flaggie, have yet to hear if anything has been done/said.

KJR.

PS. Great introduction to the new season up here, first corner, first lap of first race, Legend barrel rolled three times. Drivers first words, "Look at my f*****g car, F**K, F**K". Driver fine , car a write off .

Also, SMRC had use of a new 6 series BMW as a coarse car. The design brief must have been "Must sound at least as good as the Mercedes used at F1 GPs .

PPS It didn't rain either