Under 2 Litre FIA tin tops

[simon drabble]

As most are aware Carol Spagg of Gentlemen Driver fame is starting a new series next season for under 2 litre pre 65 Appendix K saloon cars. I was having a drink with two fellow racers last night tring to work out what would be quickest. Clearly the Lotus Cortina's and GTA's are going to be front runners are have we missed anything? BMW's are heavy (and she will check engine sizes) Volvos are heavy and slow. Mini's are great on windy circuits in the wet but all roads seem to lead back to Lotus Cortina's and GTA's - or do they? She wont allow 2.o litre 911's.
It will be a great series and when run at teh same meetings as Julius' Top Hat allow 2 x 1 hour races in a weekend - that is great value racing! torwards the end of the season there will be a 3 hour race.

[john ruston]

Depends who bends the rules the best,my monies on one of those doggy Goodwood Cortinas

[simon drabble]

I hope that Carol is on top of which ones are bent!! Certainly most realize it takes more than an F1 driver to get that sort of pace out of one!!

[Teddington Ted]

I'm sure that you are right about the Lotus Cortinas and GTAs but I think that it would be a great shame if we end up with effectively a two-make series. In period the European Touring Car Championship had a wide variety of cars and although no doubt the bias will be towards Cortinas and GTAs it will be a better spectacle if there are lots of other types of car too.

I shall be entering my Lancia Flavia Zagato and am very pleased not to be up against 911s!

Mark

[simon drabble]

I totally agree and that was the point of the conversation but we ended up scratching our heads asto what else would be at the sharp end. Mid field I hope to see some Ti Supers and at least one Cortina GT!!

[John Turner]

Whilst it will great to see Lotus Cortina's and GTA's, a bit more variety would be good. The problem is that the difficulty identifying alternatives merely reflects the situatiion that prevailed when they were contemporary, I guess.

[Peter Mallett]

Which (as you say) John is why the original championships had the larger engined cars as well.

Simon I think you and your drinking buddies might have identified a snag with this.

[John Turner]

Presumably, therefore, there could be problems with grid sizes as well, then?

[simon drabble]

Carol has the reputation for filling grids with nice cars so I dont have any concerns about that and with drivers like Teddington Ted bringing out his Lancia and other cars as well I think you will see a diversified grid but the front will be mostly Lotus Cortinas and GTA's which lets face it is not vastly different from the FIA Championship (apart from trh Mustangs)

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

front will be mostly Lotus Cortinas and GTA's which lets face it is not vastly different from the FIA Championship (apart from trh Mustangs)

Point very well made.

So er, why do we need this series then?

[simon drabble]

because the FIA championship has struggled and doesnt have the greatest reputation. Carol has a strong following and many people will race in her series as they know it will get good meetings and will be well run. She will run this at the same meetings as her other two series (Gentlemen Drivers and Sports Racers Series) so drivers with cars for that as well can get a serious amount of racing in - interestingly her series should complement Julius' Top Hat. Its no coincidence that this will also driver up the values of sub 2 litre FIA cars in teh same way as her other series have for the front running cars (Bizza's and Cobra's and Lotus Elevens etc in GD and sports protoypes in general for the other series).

[Peter Mallett]

Well I would think that driving up values is the last thing we need. A Lotus Cortina is now so overpriced that mere mortals can't afford them anymore.

Certainly she runs good events but I am struggling with the overall concept. The series certainly doesn't reflect the period that the cars raced, yet Top Hat does. Then you look at where the races are aimed and perhaps there's some logic. Those with multi car transporters can arrive and race their sports protoypes and their LC/AR's on the same weekend.

As to the struggling FIA championship? The reputation has a lot to do with the originality of the cars. If that is the case how will people with later blocks in their under 2 litre cars be any different to those in the FIA championship? I ask this because the availablity of original Ford blocks is pretty low these days.

Don't get the wrong impression. I'm pleased you've found somewhere to cater for your desire to race these cars. I'm just unsure of the ability to provide good grids with variety, as you originally highlighted.

And with the gratest of respect to Zef, the general public can't tell the difference between his GT and your LC apart from the colour.

A further point. IMHO the GTA challenge died out because the drivers got bored with racing the same cars at every event. What makes this one different?

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well I would think that driving up values is the last thing we need. A Lotus Cortina is now so overpriced that mere mortals can't afford them anymore.

Relative to Alfa GTA's they are still underpriced. GTA's are now upwards of £60k whereas Lotus Cortina's seem to be in the 35-45k range. I think it will always be the case that they trade at a discount to GTA's but I would expect them to be nearer the 50k as a baseline (assuming its sorted and competitive)

Certainly she runs good events but I am struggling with the overall concept. The series certainly doesn't reflect the period that the cars raced, yet Top Hat does. Then you look at where the races are aimed and perhaps there's some logic. Those with multi car transporters can arrive and race their sports protoypes and their LC/AR's on the same weekend.


Top Hat and Carols series are covering the same period so I am a little confused by this!! The only difference (Now Top Hat is FIA only) is engine size. An increasing number of historic racers are multi car owners and looking at endurance only races so its simply matching supply and demand.

As to the struggling FIA championship? The reputation has a lot to do with the originality of the cars. If that is the case how will people with later blocks in their under 2 litre cars be any different to those in the FIA championship? I ask this because the availablity of original Ford blocks is pretty low these days.

She will police pretty strictly watching Lotus Cortina;s and BMW's especially. She is not afraid of stopping a car from racing that she doesnt like (from an eligibility basis!).

Don't get the wrong impression. I'm pleased you've found somewhere to cater for your desire to race these cars. I'm just unsure of the ability to provide good grids with variety, as you originally highlighted.

And with the gratest of respect to Zef, the general public can't tell the difference between his GT and your LC apart from the colour.

A further point. IMHO the GTA challenge died out because the drivers got bored with racing the same cars at every event. What makes this one different?

GTA Challenge died out because a lot of Alfa drivers (myself included) didnt want to race against Alfa's only and against 2 litre cars on yoki's etc.... this then morphed into 70's cars which I think is becoming ever more successful.

Carol is no fool and I reckon she has got at least 30-40 cars committed. As I said before she has a wide audience to draw on, and most (myself included) see this as an addition to Top Hat not instead of as they will often be at the same meetings.

My techy skills are not great - I have answered in your quote to most points!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

GTA Challenge died out because a lot of Alfa drivers (myself included) didnt want to race against Alfa's only and against 2 litre cars on yoki's etc.... this then morphed into 70's cars which I think is becoming ever more successful. !!

Agreed, that was my point.

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Carol is no fool and I reckon she has got at least 30-40 cars committed. As I said before she has a wide audience to draw on, and most (myself included) see this as an addition to Top Hat not instead of as they will often be at the same meetings.

Again I agree with you but I refer you to the above whereby the only real difference is your reference to tyres.

Originally Posted by simon drabble

My techy skills are not great - I have answered in your quote to most points!!

I'd still like to know where all the original LC blocks are that would make all the cars meet the requirements. I guess my point may be that the idea is great but the execution won't be the technical paradise some folks expect.

[simon drabble]

Time will tell but if her over series are anything to go by she will not tolerate oversized engined cars - she is very strict on that as it devalues (in her eyes) the series if it becomes a hot rod series.

[Peter Mallett]

Ah, but the Lotus twink and the Ford Twink (a la Escort) may be the same size but unless I'm way off base here, are different blocks and therefore don't comply with FIA App k.

Anyway even if wrong on the specifics I think you get my drift.

[simon drabble]

they are different blocks but I think you will find that most people get there engines done at known builders (Racing Fabs, Smurthwaite etc..) and as such the blocks used are generally excepted as being legal
the problem has been in people using oversized engines (esp in BMW's) that will be watched very carefully..

[Peter Mallett]

Not the point though. Whilst the engines might be considered legal they patently aren't original so with the greatest of respect you've already allowed a performance advantage into the series. The later Twink blocks are stronger than the originals. Its why the old Classic Touring Cars ran them in the early nineties.

So if that is allowed what's next? Etc. etc.

So I'm glad the series is giving you and all those with qualifying cars a place to race with a stable set of regs but as you say its actually no different from Top Hat, CTCRC Historics (App K) et al who also allow these mods. That then brings us back to the question. What's this series for?

BTW. I am playing devils advocate here. And knowing Smurthwaite reasonably well I'm certain he wouldn't allow any of his cars to be anything but in line with the regs. But the regs will necessarily be flexed to fit the mechanical availablility, thus your expensive L/C or Alfa won't be quite the original car everyone would like to think it is.

[simon drabble]

Peter what historic race car is? All 50/60s cars have some benefit of technical progress within them - thank god otherwise we would never finish a race!!!! Having said that so long as mods are all within FIA homogolations I dont see a problem with it - as you said it creates a stable platform that all can build to if they choose to.

[zefarelly]

I'm back !!!

blocks are the same, but carry minor difference ( deciferable by casting No's mainly)

I've just written an article on 155 Ford/twink blocks as part of a precrossflow article contribution.

the main differences pre and post 66 are end caps. . . .and yes the appK spec stipulates the difference !