Banning tyre warmers... is it mad ?

[davyboy]

This may be threaded somewhere else [apologies if so].

Do people think this idea the FIA have of banning tyre warmers in F1 next year is actually very dangerous ? We've seen Schuey and Karthakeiyan get into trouble today on cold tyres [I know tyre warmers would not have had an effect there]... but surely out of respect for what happened Alex Zanardi [where they would have], the FIA cannot seriously go ahead with this.

[luke]

It's less of a problem for F1 cars as the tyres before they are worn than tyres in Champ Car that take several laps to warm up.

[Pingguest]

I disagree. Tyre blankets are noting more than legalised driver aids. It should be up to the driver to warm up the tyres.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I disagree. Tyre blankets are noting more than legalised driver aids. It should be up to the driver to warm up the tyres.

Do you really think so ? Its fairly commonly agreed that Zanardi's accident would unlikely have happened if his tyres were up to temperature when exited the pits. It would be pretty horrible to see something like that again in an F1 race on live TV.

[Kicking-back]

I'm not keen on tyre warmers.

They don't use them in ChampCar or IndyCar, they don't need them in F1.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Do you really think so ? Its fairly commonly agreed that Zanardi's accident would unlikely have happened if his tyres were up to temperature when exited the pits. It would be pretty horrible to see something like that again in an F1 race on live TV.

Drivers can always spin off if they make a mistake. Unfortunately it happend with Zanardi.

[JeremySmith]

If I had payed $30,000 for a set of tyre warmers I would like to continue using them. If it is *safer* in the long run to continue the use of warmers then I am all for it..KB does have a point of course, they don't use them elsewhere so why in F1? The drivers have lots of time in the off season to get used to cold tyres.

[davyboy]

OK then. Let me phrase the question another way. Does the use of tyre warmers increase, reduce, or make no difference at all to safety ?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by davyboy

OK then. Let me phrase the question another way. Does the use of tyre warmers increase, reduce, or make no difference at all to safety ?

Maybe you should ask Michelin and Bridgestone that question.

The manufacturers of the tyres are required to make tyres that are safe in all conditions.

Neither Michelin or Bridgestone could say "We cannot run any of our tyres,because we didn't expect the track surface temperature to be so low".

If tyre warmers are banned,then they must produce a tyre that heats up more quickly.

[Sodemo]

I'd like to see them banned for the reasons explained above.

Montoya was renowned for being a master on cold tyres during his champcar days, not sure if it would translate into F1, but it is possible.

[Mr V]

Well, if todays race was anything to go by today, after the safety car periods, the cars were lapping 3-4 seconds slower for quite a while, (yes i know the speeds came back later), add in a V8 engine and we could see cars going 10 seconds a lap (at a guess) slower than we do today, thats not F1.

[Dutton]

It was still F1 when they were running 10 seconds slower than they do today (but they won't be, so don't worry). You are including an extra 4 seconds or what have you that is relevant to a post-SC period. They would actually be 4 seconds slower than the current post-SC pace, which was slower anyway by say 4 seconds than the current pace. Next year they would be equal degrees slower both in racing trim and post-SC conditions.

Trying to use that line of argument to say F1 could be 10 seconds slower is flawed.

[Jordi]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Do you really think so ? Its fairly commonly agreed that Zanardi's accident would unlikely have happened if his tyres were up to temperature when exited the pits. It would be pretty horrible to see something like that again in an F1 race on live TV.

Alex said, and Dario Franchitti too, that there was some fluid where Alex spun.

[BootsOntheSide]

If tyre changes are reintroduced for next year, banning tyre warmers would have a big effect on lap speeds every time a driver starts a new stint, and after a safety car period. However, the biggest effect would be at the start - cold tyres and aggressive rookie drivers could mean several collisions in the early races, and that could just be too big a safety problem.

If they were to introduce this change, they would ahve to consult the tyre companies first, and be sure that tyres could be designed so as to generate grip immediately. In reality, this process of design and development/testing is likely to be so high that any 'cost-cutting' element is immediately cancelled out.

[Nicholosophy]

I notice that A1 are using tyre warmers so F1 isn't the only category that uses them.

It would be awesome from a spectator point of view to watch 22 cars on cold tyres. However I don't think I really care either way - as long as safety is considered.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

If tyre changes are reintroduced for next year, banning tyre warmers would have a big effect on lap speeds every time a driver starts a new stint, and after a safety car period. However, the biggest effect would be at the start - cold tyres and aggressive rookie drivers could mean several collisions in the early races, and that could just be too big a safety problem.

There's always a chance that aggressive rookies make a huge shunt during their first raceweekens. A ban on tyre changes wouldn't make such a different.

If they were to introduce this change, they would ahve to consult the tyre companies first, and be sure that tyres could be designed so as to generate grip immediately. In reality, this process of design and development/testing is likely to be so high that any 'cost-cutting' element is immediately cancelled out.

That's right. But every change to the technical regulations or sportive regulations which affect the technology, costs money. That's also the reason why it is very doubtfull whether the one tyre rule and one engine rule made the teams save money.

[davyboy]

The tyres are at optimum temperature while lapping normally and that is 99% of the race. There would be a tiny window when [if tyre warmers were banned] they would not be. That would mean having the driver alter their approach to driving for that period to get the tyres warm, before resuming normal service. This represents a window of severe danger with more or less no gain in anything for anyone.

[EERO]

F1 didn't have tire warmers in the past and the starts were no more chaotic.

Tire warmers first were used I believe by Brabham (Someone correct me if I am wrong on the date and team) in the late 80's and were an advantage after pit stops as tires took less time to get up to speed. Once all the teams had warmers, the advantage became moot and they became an unneccessary expense. If drivers cannot drive in F1 on cold tires, they don't deserve to be there. Plain and simple.

This is a classic example of the unneccessary spiralling of expenses that must be brought into line for the sport to survive.

Its an easy thing to cut and no team will gain an advantage by the change and it will reward more skilled drivers and penalize the duffers.

Its pretty clear to me.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The tyres are at optimum temperature while lapping normally and that is 99% of the race. There would be a tiny window when [if tyre warmers were banned] they would not be. That would mean having the driver alter their approach to driving for that period to get the tyres warm, before resuming normal service. This represents a window of severe danger with more or less no gain in anything for anyone.

But with tyre blankets you have the window. The optimum temperature is approximately 110 degrees. The tyre blankets warm up the tyres to not more than 80 degrees.

[davyboy]

Tyre blankets had been around since the 1970s, however Gordon Murray introduced the electric warmers in the days when Nelson Piquet was driving for Brabham in the early 1980s. They were an integral element of Gordon's strategic pit stops in races.

Tyre warmers are not that expensive in comparison to software development costs for aero and engines and don't provide anyone with real advantage. I just see them as a safety feature. But I'm surprised that almost everyone here disagrees and feels they should be banned. Maybe most of the usernames here a pseudonyms for Max Mosley

[shiny side up!]

I think it is very difficult to conclusively say that tire warmers improve safety. There are 3 times when cold tires play a role in an F1 race: the start, pit stops, and SC periods.

Tire warmers make very little difference to the start of an F1 race... by the time the cars are parked on the grid waiting for the lights to go out, it is the formation lap that is mostly responsible for the heat that the tires have (or don't have).

Tire warmers probably did help a little after pit stops in years past when you were allowed to change tires. But after half a lap in anger, tire temps are above what the warmers provide, anyway. So maybe they would be "safer" for a few corners... but only marginally. A racing tire that is 50 degrees off optimal instead of 25 degrees off optimal still requires a bit of careful driving. Anyway, with no tire changes, tire warmers have no bearing on pitstops.

Tire warmers do not do a darn thing for you during a safety car period, the last of cold tire safety concerns. If anything, the fact that tire warmers exist might ( far-fetchedly! ) make SC restarts LESS safe, as the tires are generally designed to start from a 'warmed' temperature that is not available during a SC restart.

I fail to see much of a link between tire-warmers and safety in F1. They offer a limited performance gain for the first half of a lap, if that, when in use. In 2005 that had little to no bearing on safety.

[N I Tram]

Assuming that tyre changes are reintroduced for next year, removing tyre warmers might lead teams to make less pitstops, due to the slight disadvantage of getting back up to speed. I can only think of one case of a driver crashing shortly after a pitstop in the tyre-warmer era (Berger Portugal 93), maybe there were more in the previous era?

[Super Tourer]

We had this in the BTCC when tyre warmers were banned for the 2000 season, the doom mongers were predicting chaos and confusion but teams and drivers soon got used to operating without them.

Of course F1 is at a higher level, but equally has more downforce and technology to keep the car pointing forwards. You could argue that driving with the available grip is part of the skill of a driver and certainly several drivers have shown themselves to be good at driving on cold tyres in other series.

In terms of cost, having warmers is pence in F1 terms, teams probably spend more on pot plants for the motorhomes. As for safety, that is well covered by the other contributors to the thread.

[EERO]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Tyre warmers are not that expensive in comparison to software development costs for aero and engines and don't provide anyone with real advantage. I just see them as a safety feature. But I'm surprised that almost everyone here disagrees and feels they should be banned. Maybe most of the usernames here a pseudonyms for Max Mosley

I cannot disagree with your statement, but I draw a different conclusion. I believe that any unneccessary expense, no matter how small should be eliminated. They offer no advantage for any one team, though any single team which opted NOT to use them while the others did, would be at a serious disadvantage. They offer no clear safety benefits and they narrow the gap between drivers with great car control over those whose skills may be a bit less.

Ban 'em and be on with it.

[okeefe]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

I notice that A1 are using tyre warmers so F1 isn't the only category that uses them.

It would be awesome from a spectator point of view to watch 22 cars on cold tyres. However I don't think I really care either way - as long as safety is considered.

Interesting - this member would not care to watch those same 22 cars on cold tires, slipping about the track - but would rather watch those 22 cars with warm tires speeding around and gripping track. I think cold tires makes for a race with less speed; and more more contact and boring cautions. My vote is such a ban in F1 would be unsafe; and very limiting to the drivers.