If you were Long Beach why would you sign on with CCWS next year!

[sgjb]

Just thinking about the LBGP this year and how we are so close and really only 11 drivers confirmed. Interesting to read the bottom of the article of the comment from LBGP.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Edmon...963873-sun.html

Why if you are the LBGP would you sign on again with CCWS for next year. The delays in finding teams and drivers must be frustrating for LBGP. It is hard to market with only a few stars left. Disorganization seems to be the flavor for CCWS.

Once this race is over if they took the IRL they could begin marketing for next year using Andretti, Ganassi, Penske real players in the racing industry and these names, more importantly, would resonate with the fans.

I am a CCWS fan but must say it is becoming tougher and tougher to keep saying that.

[Kicking-back]

I have to agree with you - if I was organising Long Beach I would, reluctantly, invite the IndyCars over.

[Snrub]

The link isn't working anymore.

I don't think there's a substantial advantage by either series in the driver recognition respect. In terms of LBGP organizers' frustrations regarding not knowing the exact lineup, the most important people have been declared as part of the lineup. If I was the LBGP organizers I wouldn't want to risk switching from something that's been successful to something that doesn't automatically gaurenty the same results.

In terms of names, the IRL teams probably have more name recognition. Of the general public, how many of them care about the teams? I'd suggest few. No one goes out to a race because they'd psyched that Ganassi is running a team in the IRL. It's about the drivers. In terms of teams "resonating with fans," I think Paul Newman wins the Joe Public appeal contest hands down.

[luke]

If, that's an IF, the race ever goes to the other series, then I doubt it would be as popular as the Champ Car race.
Its tradition, and it's been a CART race since, '84.

Long beach is my favourite street circuit, along with a few others, and I feel it's an important part of Champ Car, and it's history, similar to Milwaukee.

[Kicking-back]

I don't think it would damage attendance.

Most people go for the event at Long Beach, rather than the series.

[norman-normal]

sgjb, perhaps you should stop saying that.

Once the final numbers and final driver-team placements are determined; all info will be provided, probably just a week before the race. That would serve to keep the interest very high. I think there will be some very promising new drivers and numbers(more than 18).
CBS&NBC have reconized the devout core of (real) fans willing to part with thier own money and buy tickets and figure there must be something to it.
Look for a lot of new sponsers.

[luke]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

I don't think it would damage attendance.

Most people go for the event at Long Beach, rather than the series.

The Toyota Grand prix of Long beach has been a Champ Car race since '84.
The majourity of the fans are Champ Car fans, that go to the event, and it's maintained a loyal fan base.

[macdaddy]

norman-normal:

Once the final numbers and final driver-team placements are determined; all info will be provided...

Hopefully quite alot of that info will be provided at next weekend's "Media Kickoff". I'm expecting there to be, anyway...

[Amar7605]

I think that if Long Beach turns into an IRL race, then the Grand Prix will have a very tough time filling the seats. Like luke said, the people who go to LB are loyal Champ Car fans, so they would not like the change at all. Moreover, given the crappy attendance that Fontana gets, I doubt that there are a great number of serious IRL fans in Southern California.

One thing that can be said about CC events over IRL races... people show up.

[macdaddy]

Up until very recently, I was suspicious that future LBGP's would feature F1. But it would appear that their current US track has invested quite alot of money in SAFER barriers, specific to F1, and they wouldn't have done so without assurance of a future.

[BootsOntheSide]

Having 2 F1 races in the US seems feasible, considering the country's size, and the fact that the country supported 2 (sometimes 3) races in the past.

Closer to the topic, I think a lot of circuits will be getting frustrated with ChampCars. A lot of places have been messed around and not given a definite date, let alone a definite idea of the field they are trying to promote. If the first few IRL road/street races go well and are well-attended, Long Beach would be well-advised to switch

[Jordi]

I don't know how well attended the thing will be if it's CCWS or IRL. But it's true that Champ Car must improve in "knowing who the hell is driving". Perhaps having one or two events before the Long Beach race itself would help.

[norman-normal]

Boots, aside from Indy, how many "well attended races has IRL had?" . I'm just curious I don't know of any, how about if we only count tickets solde, not given away.

You need to rember California is a True "Blue state"

BTW, : INDY tickets and rooms are plentyfull any time . Wasn't the case a few years ago. ...I'm wondering how lmuch longer the Hulman famley will let the money hemorage while T.G. pushes his "vision"

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

I think that if Long Beach turns into an IRL race, then the Grand Prix will have a very tough time filling the seats. Like luke said, the people who go to LB are loyal Champ Car fans, so they would not like the change at all. Moreover, given the crappy attendance that Fontana gets, I doubt that there are a great number of serious IRL fans in Southern California.

One thing that can be said about CC events over IRL races... people show up.

Just curious: Which facts make you want to say that Long Beach will have a problem filling the seats when the IRL gets there in stead of Champcar?

Personally i do not believe that most (or even 30%) of attendance at Long Beach as well as total attendance for CC are "Loyal Champ Car fans". Loyal fans are imo people that at least follow most of the races. Tv-ratings suggest that less than 10% of total attendance follows most of the races.

[carsten66]

Oh no... stop it, three weeks before the season opener starts I d'ont like to hear all this negative stuff anymore... the last months we heard tons of it... gentlemen start your engines and talk about the drivers, teams etc... this year we will have great pack of good drivers on the grid!

[JohnSSC]

Beat me to it Roninho!

carsten66, three weeks before the season opener and we are still not sure of who will be driving for who - or even what teams will be there for sure.

I would wager the IRL is not bleeding out $$ nearly as fast as OWRS.

[Hazza]

You can't say anything for sure.

Remember for all we know, the IRL road-racing package may be as people say on this forum "Bridget Jones Big" Pants and be a farce. But it could be great, you don't know.

You can't say for sure that they're all hard-core Champ car fans, you'd have to hold the race to find out. And you can't say there'd be more attendance. More people turned up to Millwauke for the IRL, admittedly it's the IRLs thing, ovals, so even that isn't the greatest of comparisons.

But sure, if the IRL puts a show on @ St. Pete then maybe you would consider moving the IRL.

And even if you are a hardcore Champcar fan, wouldn't you atleast watch tv to watch such CART Alumini as Kanaan, Dixon, Franchetti, Herta, Patreek etc race around the track? I mean you can't say that it wouldn't be interesting?

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Beat me to it Roninho!

carsten66, three weeks before the season opener and we are still not sure of who will be driving for who - or even what teams will be there for sure.

I would wager the IRL is not bleeding out $$ nearly as fast as OWRS.

Hmm... sorry but is it possible that you have missed some news...?!

I'm still tired of it, every year the same proceedre, come on let's talk about racing!!!!!!!!

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I would wager the IRL is not bleeding out $$ nearly as fast as OWRS.

Now that's a prize worth bragging about. I seem to recall KK saying that Champcar was no longer losing money by the end of last year.

[D.R.T.]

ChampCar officials will have to be doing some wining and dining over the coming months because as stated, Long Beach organisers are concerned and you cant blame. Trying to run an event with one eye closed is good way to do business.

However the race in 3 weeks will be the acid test. Champcar will have to come and knock there socks and show them why they should be at the event.

[Snrub]

Just for fairness I will point out that the IRL does have some decent attendance at some non-Indy races. Also, I really think KK was just trying to make things sound better when he talked about no losses. $50M from 2004 is pretty hard to make disappear.

I really think that this year CC can make things happen so that no one will be asking why someone bothers to stage a CC race. The new TV package, strong driver lineup, seemingly increased sponsorship (seems to be improving, but not night and day yet), etc. If simply because of the "comeback kid" factor, CC started to get some surprising press at times in 2004, if 2005 pans out the way it has potential to, I think we'll see a lot more.

[Electrocuted]

Since I lean towards the biz threads, money, and attendance debates,,,, I have some of the numbers from both OW series for the past few years writen down ....

2003 CART (these were on forums,, and people said higher or lower until CART fans AND the IRL fans stated they were correct!!!)

40,000 St Pete (Remember that number when ever the IRL runs there)
68,000 LB
26,000 Miami (except the promoter said 14,000 under oath)
30,000 Mid O
30,000 Cleve
25,000 RA
25,000 Mlwk
30,000 Denver
30,000 Portland
25,000 Laguna

2003 IRL (I didnt watch enough of them or lurk the boards to get the numbers. However,, everyone seems to agree that attendance has been steady at a few,, and gone up most places. )

2004 IRL
30,000 Homestead
65,000 Motegi
250,000 Indy
85,000 Texas (I think it's a few thousand to high)
42,000 Richmond
50,000 Kansas
??,??? Nashville (40's I think ??????)
38,000 Mlwk
58,000 Kentucky
??,??? Pikes Peak (High 30's or low 40's I think??????)
60,000 Chicago
75,000 Texas

2004 OWRS
65,000 LB
28,000 Mlwk
25,000 Portland
20,000 Clvlnd
72,500 Toronto
26,000 Denver (I'm not sure,,, anyone have a reaonable number?)
5,000 Laguna
??,??? Vegas (Start of race attendance or towards end attendance??)
I didnt catch a few, the 2 Canada races were in the 60,000's I assume? Monterrey was close to 75,000? Mex City over 100,000!

Where I think a lot of people think street courses look full and there are "millions" of people there,, the ovals have the large 100,000 NASCAR fan grandstand that leaves a LOT of leg room for half capacity to spread out in. Street course stands LOOK GREAT on tv,, but they only hold 2500 people, not the 100,000 like an oval does. Thats why I "think" people get mixed up with how many fans show up to a track????

Of course,, the money side,, ovals are fixed cost, a lil bump for race weekend... Where street courses take a LOT of money to set-up and tear down. Attendance can be lower at an oval and everyone can make a lil money,, where a street course takes higher attendance and sponsorship to make back the costs.

To the topic,,,,,,,
The BIG thing for street courses are the sponsors. Hospitality, signage, sponsorship, purchase tickets to give away, VIP guests, the rooms with food and bars (what are they called?) for large corporations to entertain guests, ad space in the program, etc. THIS YEAR with so many things yet to be announced I wouldnt think LB has any money coming in, except SC TOY Dealers and King Taco, and ticket sales. I havnt heard if a Mexican beer will be there??? So it doesnt look to good for impressing LB this year??

Currently the IRL has all the big sponsors, the engine mnftrs, large teams, guests, spending money at the track and in LB at restaurants, hotels, rental cars and such,, and LB can promote Penske and Andretti and Cheep and Foyt. Just like in the CART days.

So,, I dont think LB will hastily decide to do anything until they see what OWRS gets for corporate sponsors,, towards the end of the season. If it isnt looking to good,, LB would be foolish not to switch.

Good grief this was long. Sorry!

[Electrocuted]

Originally Posted by Snrub

Just for fairness I will point out that the IRL does have some decent attendance at some non-Indy races.

Also, I really think KK was just trying to make things sound better when he talked about no losses. $50M from 2004 is pretty hard to make disappear.

The new TV package,
strong driver lineup,

seemingly increased sponsorship (seems to be improving, but not night and day yet), etc.

Solid post. And I accidently deleted part of yours,, so I'll say, if things start looking good half way through the season things should be allright for next year.

I'm glad you said "KK was making things sound better." It's way to easy to do the math,, it takes over $125,000,000.00 per year to put the 18 cars on track and run the series..... Sponsors, tv money, team owners pockets, series owners pockets, driver family money,,,,, it doesnt add up high enough to cover the costs yet. KK isnt making money, ever, on being a series and team owner. Whats the old saying about a small fortune in autoracing,,, start with a big one.

BTW, : INDY tickets and rooms are plentyfull any time . Wasn't the case a few years ago. ...

Come on,,, thats an old tired incorrect Robin "cant think of anything fresh" Miller half-truth. Indianopolis (how do ya spell that?) has doubled hotel rooms the past dozen years. The 500 out-of-towners has shrunk by 10's of thousands,, made up by the 400 and GP out-of-towners. The hotels now get 3 weekends of guests which much more then makes up for renting only 1 weekend per year. The City gets 3 times the tax money on rooms, restaurants, beer, gas, car rentals. Indy-polis buisness owners get 3 weekends of more income,, not just 1 weekend. Sounds like everyone makes more money???

[Amar7605]

So what are we basically saying here? Champ Car is gonna die and the IRL will win?

[Electrocuted]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

So what are we basically saying here? Champ Car is gonna die and the IRL will win?

NO NO NO!!!!!!
I dont really have a side in this fight. I prefer dirt anyways.......
But I sure do enjoy watching most of 30 OW races a year, and would miss it if one of the series shut the doors.

What's expected, guessed, hope, could be, might be, maybe not, may not be, and just plain unlikely for ANY of us to guess what will really happen in the next few years is,,,,,,,,,,, who the heck knows???

Just hope LB waits until later in the season before they decide who to run next year.
And hope more sponsors support the series,,,, so we never find out how much money is KK's limit until he says "lock the doors."