"Let Tracey Pass" Carpentier to crew "F### You"

[sgjb]

I was listening to the incar audio and Neil Mickelwright asked Patrick Carpentier to let Paul get past him for about 3 laps Patrick never responded. Neil told Paul they were working something out. Finally someone else came on the radio and asked him to let Paul go. All Patrick said then was "F### YOU" then let Paul past him.

It seemed till now the teammates got along quite well. Will this put a damper on the team spirit. What does it mean to a driver knowing you will not be able to win a race. Also knowing you must let your teammate drive. Should this be aloud in racing at all!!

[Jay]

It was inevitable really... You're a team owner, you've got one car that's faster than the other, but it's being held up... it was something that Team Player's had to do.

Let's not confuse this with what Ferrari does... in taking one car that is clearly faster than the other, and telling that car to slow down and let the other one by for outside reasons. That's completely different, and I hope we don't see it in CArt.

[paulzinho]

Let them race, IMO if this had been ferrari there would have been an outcry. If Tracy's a deserving champ he'll find his way past though I know team managers will see this differently it shouldn't happen.

Nice response from pat though!

[Jay]

Good point paul! I'm think of this from a team owner point of view, you've got one car that's holding up your faster one that is going for the championship... I wouldn't want my slower car, holding up my faster one.

I was more unhappy with Newmann-Haas not letting Bourdais, who was clearly faster, have a go at the win.

[paulzinho]

Yep but then you got Junky ahead in the championship, personally I hate it when racing comes to this and I was a huge Ferrari and Schumi fan until Austria last year, now I support Rubens but no longer Michael or Ferrari as a team. (Nice cars though).

But then again I'm not a team owner but I understand why they do what they do it just isn't what the majority of fans (I hope anyway) want to see. The best should have to earn their results, especially in a closely matched series like CART. But the again when its closely matched it increases the need for such orders to be used.

[corkholio]

I think the outcry against team orders was because the anti-Ferrari crowd needed every excuse to discredit the team's achievements, not really becasue they actually find it wrong.

I feel bad for Pat, as he had outdone his teammate all weekend and was ahead of him on merit, and was forced to move over due to his teammate's inability to pass him (perhaps a problem with running these oversized indoor kart tracks?). They could have just held Pat a sec long in the pits and it would have had the same effect. I don't blame Player's for making the move as it was in their best interest, nor am I surprised that people are now spinning and deflecting to justify it as somehow OK to use team orders. If Dario Franchitti had team orders he would have won the championship in 99.

It's ridiculous to criticize N/H for not letting the leash loose of Bourdais. It was unlikely to Bourdais was going to make a run on his teammate and risk taking both drivers out.

[Snrub]

I don't have a problem with team orders when it involves a situation where one driver isn't running faster than their teammate and they're told not to try to pass. I would have a problem with them telling PC to pull over any time he was at a competitive pace. The problem was he was 2 seconds off the pace. PT could have tried to pass legit and probably succeeded. The point is, why should he have to risk it? If Bourdais was 2 seconds a lap faster than Junky he should have the right to pass for the lead.

[macdaddy]

Ever since there have been teams, there have been team orders.
That's all just a part of the game.
Can't blame Players, can't blame Carpentier or Tracy.
Can't blame N/Haas either, as Bourdais could have won.

Perhaps things would have been different had it been for the race win. But it wasn't. It was merely for position on the track. And Tracy clearly had the fastest car of the two, and ontrack passing was all but impossible.

Let's not forget that Forsythe is not the sole owner of the team. Imperial Tobacco holds a significant ownership stake. And this is their "last hurrah".

Neil Micklewright alluded to the possibility of team orders a couple of races ago. At the time, they didn't end up being necessary. But in Denver, they did.

Do I feel badly for Carpentier? You bet!
Yet I understand what's at stake here.
Especially for Players.

[Liz]

I wondered if that was the reason Patrick crashed -- that he lost concentration by fuming over team orders. In Montreal he stated that if there was any question of team orders, he would shut off his radio, but went on to add, "This is MY place," which made good sense to me.

I think Bourdais was quite diplomatic about all question of team orders, and just like last year there was a reason for it (although in Scott Dixon's case, he didn't get the chance to race his teammate again as he was moved out of the series.)

Personally I am against team orders too. Let them race.

[Muzza]

Originally posted by corkholio
I think the outcry against team orders was because the anti-Ferrari crowd needed every excuse to discredit the team's achievements, not really becasue they actually find it wrong.
(...)

No, Corkholio, you are wrong - at least concerning myself.

I cannot stand Ferrari as this team has cheated, bent the rules and has received a friendly hand from FISA, FIA, ACO, ACI and almost any other motorsport body througout its history

"The ends justify the means" would be the perfect motto for the Scuderia Ferrari.

[gttouring]

Faster team mates should pass, they are racing and drivers get P1 not the team. if they made team trophies i can see the reason for orders..

[dirtfan]

World of Outlaws doesn't even have a "Move Over" flag for lapped traffic! "just hold your line, if were better than you, we'll get past"
An interesting article from CART.com last December. http://www.cart.com/News/Article.asp?ID=5306
Maybe the problem is that these oversized go kart tracks are designed without passing zones?
Just let 'em REALLY race!

[MLM]

I agree with Liz. You want the position,you race your butt off for it. If you can't, then shut up ,deal with it, and wait until the next opportunity comes up.

Come to think of it, it wasn't like the race was in it's last stages when PC was told to pull over. PT had plenty of time to do something about improving his position on the track.

[paul-collins]

To be fair, you should see that PT was quite a bit quicker once he was past PC. Not (necessarily) a reflection of PC, but rather a question of who's fastest at any given time. It definitely speaks to the quality of the track, that there's no passing action (particularly as the series has shown some good on-track action earlier this year).

I feel for Pat, but his holding the position over PT wouldn't have helped him in the end. Only if he could pick up the pace, make a good gamble on pit strategy, or figure out how to improve the car in the pits would he have been able to hold PT behind him all race - and then he's lost the position anyway, and has hurt PT's championship to boot.

[Quebecracing]

Pat has 6 years of loyal service to the Players Forsythe team. At the start of the 2003 season, Players has erased all of these years by imposing new chasis, engineers (2) and all of Tracy's requirements to Pat. He went along and struggled for some races but accepted that Players was going out and wanted a last Championship. He was disadvantaged from the start but persevered. Now, he's at least equal to PT's on track performances or better for the last few races.

True Champions do not need team orders... At the Denver race, team Players Forsythe has erased 25 years of my loyal support.

May they exit as losers...

[Radioshoes]

Originally posted by MLM
I agree with Liz. You want the position,you race your butt off for it. If you can't, then shut up ,deal with it, and wait until the next opportunity comes up.

Come to think of it, it wasn't like the race was in it's last stages when PC was told to pull over. PT had plenty of time to do something about improving his position on the track.

Team orders. Hmmm. If it's the last race and the championship depends on the finish then yes, team orders, definitly. But, personally, at Denver? Nope, nada, no way. Paul should trust his team mate to allow him through if he attempted to pass. Paul didn't. The announcers just got through saying how fast Pat was and they show Paul losing ground to him and then Paul's allowed past. Shouldn't have happened. As for Paul pulling away afterwards, I'm sure I would find it hard to be motivated after being asked to let my teammate by. I agree with those who say that PT had time to do something, he could have passed him in the pits. It certainly spoiled the race for me.

I think what bugs me the most though is the fact that now I can't boo Ferrari for doing the same thing. It was one of my favourite pastimes. Thanks, Players, for taking one of the joys out of hating Ferrari.

Cheers

[MLM]

Question: What would PT have done or said if the situation were reversed!?
I doubt if he would have pulled over and PC's "f*&% you" would pale in comparison to what PT would say!

[paulzinho]

Originally posted by corkholio
I think the outcry against team orders was because the anti-Ferrari crowd needed every excuse to discredit the team's achievements, not really becasue they actually find it wrong.

Not at all, I was a huge Ferrari fan until they took me for a fool last year. Haven't felt the same way about them since, don't know why, I just can't. Your comment assumes everyone is out to discredit Ferrari's success which is wrong, I remember them winning the title for the first time in 21 years and how happy everyone was, but when they did what they did in Austria that all went out of the window.

[corkholio]

The outcry against team orders happened long before Austria last year (during the Irvine era). The FIA banned team orders for this year because it generated such negative PR.

[Liz]

I loved Ferrari until TGF joined up and continued the ruthless and unprincipled behaviour he showed at Benetton (ask any of his teammates) and elsewhere. I will love them again when he's gone. I don't like cheaters and that includes people who say "well LEGALLY I didn't do anything REALLY wrong ... " when they know darned well they did.

As for team orders, I think Newman-Haas managed it much more cleverly than Players did. (And despite Ganassi's protests to the contrary does anyone believe there were no team orders last year?) We'll see at the end of the year if it made any difference or not, I guess.

[climb]

IMO it's hard for a team owner to take such decisions; surely Todt was aware of the boooos he would have got; and we have to remember that even MS didn't approve that at all.
In this case i'm not sure PT was that upset for being let pass.
Anyways, from a fan standpoint, i find that seeing teammates fight is particularly exciting; for instance Kimi's pass on Coulthard was absolutely the best move of this year

[Liz]

... surely Todt was aware of the boooos he would have got; and we have to remember that even MS didn't approve that at all.

Surely we will never forget TGF pumping his fist as he circled the track celebrating his stolen race, and the fact that he only became flustered and upset when he climbed out of the car and realised everyone had seen what he did. And we will also never forget Jean Todt not only defending his decision to stage that farce, but his declaration that Ferrari firmly intended to do it again whenever they felt like it, thank you very much.

....

But I agree that watching teammates fight it out is the most exciting racing, as they have equal equipment usually and this is the most even of fights. That was what saved that one season when Prost and Senna won almost all the races -- the fact that there were no team orders and the teammates fought hammer and tongs all season long. Think how much more fun 2002 would have been, had TGF not been afraid to fight his teammate and both had been given equal treatment?

[climb]

Never meant that Todt regretted his decision; I just menat that, anyways, they're hard decisions to take.
About knowing MS'thoughts whilst still wearing his helmets, well...i'm not that shrewd!

About 2002: you're right, Liz, albeit if i'm convinced that, even at equal conditions, MS would have beaten RB anyways.
with all respect for Rubens, MS is something more

[paulzinho]

And that is why the fact that team orders were used is even more of a disgrace, Schumacher would have walked it anyway seeing as all mechanical problems happen to Rubens!

[Snrub]

Originally posted by Quebecracing
Pat has 6 years of loyal service to the Players Forsythe team. At the start of the 2003 season, Players has erased all of these years by imposing new chasis, engineers (2) and all of Tracy's requirements to Pat. He went along and struggled for some races but accepted that Players was going out and wanted a last Championship. He was disadvantaged from the start but persevered. Now, he's at least equal to PT's on track performances or better for the last few races.

True Champions do not need team orders... At the Denver race, team Players Forsythe has erased 25 years of my loyal support.

Are you suggesting PC would have been better off with a Reynard? Until recently a Reynard pretty much kept drivers out of the top 10. I don't think PC was at that big of a disadvantage at the start of the year. Tracy had a whole new team and his engineer ditched him at the start of the season. PC has been better than PT recently? I don't see that. He was in Montreal, but in Dever he qualified where he should have while PT would have taken pole without the spin. Before his crash PC was going VERY slow. We're not talking a bit slower. He must have had a problem or something, there is no reason why he should have been 2 seconds off the pace. Tracy immediately proceeded to put in the fastest laps of the race. If PC was even .5 a lap slower on merrit I would agree with you (.5secs a lap is a lot).

Another factor when comparing the two drivers: PT has been very unPT recently, taking it easy in the middle of races so he can win the championship.

I'd also like to point out that until last year I thought both PT and PC's performances were poor enough that they might have to leave this form of racing. I was happy to see PC having so much success last year. If you'd asked me then who I thought would be the points leader at this time, this year, I would have said PC.