Cars over the armco - a new problem?

[Asp]

Was having a discussion last night about the number of cars that have landed on the wrong side of the armco in the past 12 months at Oulton Park (I can think of 4 OTOH).

Obviously, it's always been (and always will be) a risk - but there does appear to have been a higher than average occurrence recently.

Is it just coincidental - is it happening at other circuits for instance? Or is it time that the issue was considered in more detail?

[Mark Mitchell]

I think if you put it into context - the amount of cars "Going Off" at any particular Circuit, against cars "Going Over" over a period of time - it's probably just coincidental.

[Stephen Green]

There was a Porsche at last years BTCC tround at Thruxton, but I don't think it's a major problem that requires special attention. Whatever barriers you put in place there is always the risk that it will be breached.

[gravel_monkey]

what was the 4 asp?

i think i have em, ginetta at avenue, mini at lakeside, classic f3 at shell and saxmax at druids!

if they are right then it just shows they are all random

[Mark Mitchell]

Barriers Stop Cars (99% of the time)!
Fresh Air Doesn't Stop Cars (100% of the time)!

Momentum, weight ratio's, uneven ground etc all cause cars to take off.

Take the Mini at Lakeside a couple of weeks back. Would catch-fencing have prevented the car getting over the armco? Probably yes (Depending how close the fencing was to the armco in the first place!)
Would the driver have escaped with any less injuries? I suspect not.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

i think i have em, ginetta at avenue, mini at lakeside, classic f3 at shell and saxmax at druids!

Punto at Water Tower. I don't think the one at Druids was a SaxMax - it was a Saxo, I believe, but in a Stock Hatch race.

[numbersix]

Knowing that this sort of thing happens, I'm more concerned about marshals who don't focus on what's coming towards them. There's nothing wrong with chatting on post - I encourage it - but for heaven's sake keep one eye on what's coming towards you rather than talking with your back to the traffic.

Rant over.

[JimW]

I'm going to be possibly controversial so apologies in advance.

Oulton is a problem because the Armco barriers are on posts which are in soft, mainly sandy, soil.

Any impact with these barriers pushes them back at an angle greater than I see at other circuits.

The result is a supposedly final barrier which has an increased tendency to project cars upwards and hence - over they go.

I regret that Oulton was allowed/told to remove the earth barriers which used to back up the Armco for most of its above ground height.

Most of the other instances I know of involve cars clearing the barriers (and sometimes the debris fencing behind that, e.g. Odor at Donington and that Porsche at Thruxton), not knocking them back and rolling over.

There's a small research project there; wonder if anyone would fund it?

Just my thoughts.

Regards

Jim

[Asp]

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

what was the 4 asp?

i think i have em, ginetta at avenue, mini at lakeside, classic f3 at shell and saxmax at druids!

if they are right then it just shows they are all random

Those for the four I was thinking of, although as Dave has already said it was a Stock Hatch at Druids.

I hadn't counted the Punto at Water Tower as that was more through the armco! But wasn't there a Mini that tried to jump over there fairly recently too?


Completely agree though - if it was all happening at one particular corner, I know full well the MSA would already be looking into it; and I do think it's just a strange co-incidence.

Also, AFAIK, most of those examples did go clear over the armco - so short of building it stupidly high (so we can't jump over it!) there's not much to do. Mark mentioned catch-fencing, I doubt that would make any difference, as it's only really designed to "catch" bits of debris - we saw with Kelvin Burt's crash at Thruxton (as Stephen mentioned) that they'll be unlikely to stop an entire car.

Alternatively though, how many of these examples have involved initial contact? Back to a driving standards issue perhaps?

[Asp]

Originally Posted by JimW

Any impact with these barriers pushes them back at an angle greater than I see at other circuits.

The result is a supposedly final barrier which has an increased tendency to project cars upwards and hence - over they go.

Most of the other instances I know of involve cars clearing the barriers (and sometimes the debris fencing behind that, e.g. Odor at Donington and that Porsche at Thruxton), not knocking them back and rolling over.

We crossed-post there Jim - but as I best recall only Hunter Abbott's incident came from hitting the armco and then being launched into a roll, and therefore may have had a different outcome if barriers were stronger (for better or worse)

The Lakeside mini certainly was a total clearance, and I'm confident the Druids Saxo was similar. I wasn't at the Gold Cup Saturday for the F3 up a tree, but I seem to remember being told it went flying past the flag point...

[wild hipo]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

There was a Porsche at last years BTCC tround at Thruxton, but I don't think it's a major problem that requires special attention. Whatever barriers you put in place there is always the risk that it will be breached.

That depends on what you call a problem. "We all know the risks". it missed my mates wife by 2 feet and anogther marshal. They were treated for shock and when a spectator asked " I cant find my boy"; We looked under the car and as luck would have it he came walking down the path with a ice cream to the releaf of the marshals. Dont go bye on what the pictures show in the papers or on tv as it gives a wrong impression. Two people walking down the path and if had been 20 seconds before hand the porsche would have killed them. I guess you havent had a major problem yet but one day you will. And i wonder how you will react.

[Stephen Green]

I happened to be at Thruxton that day and saw the accident for myself. My point was that the number of cars that clear the armco in relation to the number or cars that race is not necessarily a problem.

I have been involved in numerous major incidents over the years so please don't insult my intelligence by making comments like that and also remember the rule of the site 'attack the post not the poster'

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Knowing that this sort of thing happens, I'm more concerned about marshals who don't focus on what's coming towards them. There's nothing wrong with chatting on post - I encourage it - but for heaven's sake keep one eye on what's coming towards you rather than talking with your back to the traffic.

Rant over.

Until you've had need to 'focus' on what's coming towards you as a marshal, I think people are a little gungho. I for one want every marshal keeping both eyes and ears and every other sense organ directed at what's coming. Talking with your back to traffic should be addressed on post immediately IMHO.

As the old saying goes "what's gone past you ain't going to hurt you".

Unless you build oval-style debris fences round racetracks, you're always going to get cars over the barriers (and not sure if even that would work for O'dor type incidents at Donington). Motorsport is dangerous, but hopefully every incident brings new information to make circuits better.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

My point was that the number of cars that clear the armco in relation to the number or cars that race is not necessarily a problem.

Agreed - pretty much what I said in second post!

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

I have been involved in numerous major incidents over the years

You caused most of them!!

[Hepatic]

the mini at lakeside i think lost it on his own. the mini at watertower that landed on the barrier then rolled off i think had help, but was rolled when the front wheel dug in to the soft ground. think the same could be said for the ginetta. the f3 at the gold cup was wheel to wheel contact, and in an open wheeler there is always the risk they'll take off.

soft ground could well be an influenace in some of these, but what could you do to help solve it? the circuit environment is what it is, in some cases you might be able to improve drainage but generally theres little you can do. unless you destroy a circuit by putting tarmac down everywhere, we're stuck with the situation of the possibility cars might roll and clear barriers. as long as we're all paying attention, stood up and alert, we're probably doing the best we can to avoid any nasty incidents.

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by JimW

I'm going to be possibly controversial so apologies in advance.

Oulton is a problem because the Armco barriers are on posts which are in soft, mainly sandy, soil.

Any impact with these barriers pushes them back at an angle greater than I see at other circuits.

The result is a supposedly final barrier which has an increased tendency to project cars upwards and hence - over they go.

I totally agree with you JimW, several years ago I was very nearly crushed to death at Oulton Park when a barrier folded back under the impact of a Venturi GT car and only the quick reactions of my colleague (Ron Cantor) on the blue flag (I was on the yellow) saved me.

Another cause is to look at the state of the grass areas near the barriers, we all know these cannot be totally smooth but if they are uneven then that is more likely to cause a car to launch over the barriers than the impact with the barrier, just look at the Modena Lamborghini (which I admit did not clear the barrier but the roll was caused by uneven/rutted ground) and the Ginetta G50 as examples of the uneven grass causing more problems than was neccessary.

I dont want to see all the grass ripped up and replaced with smooth tarmac, but more care should be taken to ensure the grass is not a cause of cars rolling.

[Stack]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

As the old saying goes "what's gone past you ain't going to hurt you".

.....unless they attack you from behind. See my post on the weekends Rockingham meeting regarding Post 16!

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by Asp

Those for the four I was thinking of, although as Dave has already said it was a Stock Hatch at Druids.

I hadn't counted the Punto at Water Tower as that was more through the armco! But wasn't there a Mini that tried to jump over there fairly recently too?


Completely agree though - if it was all happening at one particular corner, I know full well the MSA would already be looking into it; and I do think it's just a strange co-incidence.

Also, AFAIK, most of those examples did go clear over the armco - so short of building it stupidly high (so we can't jump over it!) there's not much to do. Mark mentioned catch-fencing, I doubt that would make any difference, as it's only really designed to "catch" bits of debris - we saw with Kelvin Burt's crash at Thruxton (as Stephen mentioned) that they'll be unlikely to stop an entire car.

Alternatively though, how many of these examples have involved initial contact? Back to a driving standards issue perhaps?

The new catch fence did a great job, and saved many lives when Simon Norris's Evo hit the very top of it at the end of last year, was it designed to do this, probably not, but if it wasn't there we would have had the worst day of my life

[thepits!]

"Cars over the armco - a new problem? "

I haven't been through the thread, but I'll answer the question posed.

No it isn't - one of my first marshalling experiences back in the 1970's (omg!) including, whilst sitting in relative safety in my fire truck, watching a formula libra car vault the barrier at Stirlings (Brands Hatch GP circuit) and hit the trees - via, unfortunately, two marshals. The driver and at least one of the marshals died.

Motor-racing is dangerous, it's safer now - but not safe.

[mick dickens]

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

what was the 4 asp?

i think i have em, ginetta at avenue, mini at lakeside, classic f3 at shell and saxmax at druids!

if they are right then it just shows they are all random

you have forgot a porche through the barriers at druids if my memory is correct in the power tour now f3/gt and a touring car over the barrier at lodge. both befor the current layout of both corners. I was observer on both corners. also a golf on post 7 at mallory left the cicuit and landed on the path around the track.Also a certain mike kelly was with me on all 3.The man is a jinks

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by mick dickens

you have forgot a porche through the barriers at druids if my memory is correct in the power tour now f3/gt and a touring car over the barrier at lodge. both befor the current layout of both corners. I was observer on both corners. also a golf on post 7 at mallory left the cicuit and landed on the path around the track.Also a certain mike kelly was with me on all 3.The man is a jinks

Mick, you were also the observer when the Venturi flattened the barrier at Bailey Bridge that I mentioned in my earlier post.

AVOID MICK DICKENS!!

[mick dickens]

Originally Posted by mark_l

Mick, you were also the observer when the Venturi flattened the barrier at Bailey Bridge that I mentioned in my earlier post.

AVOID MICK DICKENS!!

you have got me to remember some more. alan minshaw in tourig cars at lake side straight over ken wards head (good job he was only 5foot tall) .A tvr on water tower ron cantor tken to the med center with bad shock. Come on lads and girls remind me of more. Avoiding me could be a good be a very smart move especially in the bar just ask andy Mcloud and the fat clerk, this incident happend about 24 years ago they thought they could drink proved em wrong though

[gachjoel]

Are we just talking armco or does tyre wall count.
Truck cleared the tyre wall at pembrey last year.

[thepits!]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

Are we just talking armco or does tyre wall count.
Truck cleared the tyre wall at pembrey last year.

Surely that can't be right?

Truck drove THROUGH the tyre-wall is more like it....

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by thepits!

Surely that can't be right?

Truck drove THROUGH the tyre-wall is more like it....

Nope !!!!!

hit the tyre wall,went approx 15 feet in the air and landed the other side.
he had no brakes coming in to honda curve,he was doing about 70mph.
i was yellow flagging on the previous post.