GP 4 Strokes Already Faster?

[KC]

Word out of Japan is that Yamaha and Honda's experimental 4 stroke 990cc bikes are producing quite a bit more power than their 2001 2 stroke machines. Honda and Yamaha both admit to 230+ horsepower from their new 4 strokes while the new 2 strokes will make around 190 horsepower. The bikes are already faster on top end, but lap times are slower due to extra weight to meet next year's rules. Given time they will soon be ahead of the 2 strokes.

What do you guys think of 1.0 liter 4 strokers versus 500cc 2 strokers?

[Lazy Boy]

They're the coolest ... dood ..

[Lazy Boy]

Sorry... the only reason 4 strokes have been allowed to come back with twice the displacement as they used to be allowed is to increase the commercial viability of profit making corporation.

The corporation that owns the World GP Series has seen their popularity wane as WSB has become prosperous.

So this is their attempt to reverse that trend.

As far as whether the 4 strokes will be faster... I highly doubt it... because of tires.

I don't care what you put in the engine bay... the speeds are (and have been for 15 years) limited by TIRES..... And if 260 pound 180 HP 2-strokes have to be babied through half the race because the tires go off after 10 or 15 laps, then what the heck do people think a 320 pound 230 HP 4-stroke is going to do?

The proof that tires are the limiting factor is that Wayne Rainey and Kevin Schwantz still own the lap records at 2 or 3 tracks... Not even Doohan bettered them in all those years... because tires have not gotten better.

They (4 strokes) are going to fry the tires even quicker unless more rules are created to slow down the 500's... saddle them with more weight... put intake restrictors on them... or narrow up rim widths.

Kawasaki has already done tests and fried every tire available within 7 laps.

I would like to hear the discussions at Dunlop and Michelin concerning "What to do?".

It will be interesting to see who actually brings out the 4 strokes to the track... because as a manufacturer who races .... I would see no advantage to developing a new bike when the existing 2 strokes will beat it anyway... and they (the 2 strokes)are already developed... the Honda's have changed little in 8 years.. there was no point in going after more HP when tires were already the limiting factor.

And remember that they can't save money (and appeal to the bike buying public) by using production based 4 stroke bikes.
They have to be new "prototypes".

Other than that.... They're the coolest... dood!..

[elephino]

They will produce new tyres...and that's all I'm going to say on the subject. If the tyres will help enough is another question...

[dododo]

Tricky discussion. I tend to go with lazy boy: It's about the money. They would like to structure GP as formula. More profitable. Higher prices for us to get in etc. etc.

Maybe i'm too negative but I can see them retiring the 2-strokes and pulling the plug on WSB in the future.

We'll have to see. Untill that time we can enjoy some interesting racing to say the least.

BTW: lazy boy "dood" means "death" in my language

[KC]

You are right about tires being the limiting factor on bikes. I have a feeling that there will be a huge breakthrough on tire technology however that will eventually make the super-powered bikes viable. Nothing like extreme need make progress happen.

[elephino]

Just look at the development Michelin has done over the past year because of Garry McCoy.

I read today that WSBK will not merge with GP bikes....they will try and ride it out.

[Airhead]

Elephino,

Michelin have worked on a tyre that can with stand being mistreated by Garry for the race and hold together. They haven't given him a tire that can grip for the race and hold together.

What Garry does is go out and race around until lap eight until the tyres are stuffed. Then when every body else keeps the same riding style on stuffed tyres, Garry starts the entertaining dirt track routine. Sliding around to maintain speed. Contrast this with Doohan, who would be initially slow (comparatively), over the first eight to ten laps then because he had some grip left use his tyres up when every one elses had gone off. When his tyres expired, he was far enough ahead with a small number of laps remaining, to win.

But I don't think this is evidence of the huge leap forward in tyre design. Tyres remain the limiting factor. Because of this the emphasis within the 500 class has been on increasing the rideability of the bikes through easier power delivery rather than increasing outright power.

[chunder]

If anybody thinks it is possible to get a tyre to cope with 200hp then they are mistaken. It just isn't possible over a race distance.
What will happen is what happens with the triples and twins now and to a lesser extent twins and multis in WSB.
That is that the new fours will be quicker because the factory teams will use them. The 500's will be like the 500 Aprilia in that it will probably be quicker round most laps but not able to out grunt the biggies on the straight.
Totally agree with Moff about McCoy and tyres, the real development was the 16.5in tyre not making the tyre last for Garry. The real reason Garry can slide is coz he has more contact patch with the fatter 16.5 and as always everyone jumped on the bandwagon, even Biaggi who hates the bike sliding.
Maybe Bridgestone coming in may give the guys more grip and Dunlop need to come back too.

[Lazy Boy]

"Just look at the development of the Michelin tire over the last year because of Garry McCoy"

Really?.... Did Garry McCoy win the Championship?
2nd?
3rd?...What?...... 7th?

Did he set any new all time track records ?
(He may have ... you will have to tell me)

I say tire development has gone almost nowhere in the last 10 years....
Look at the way he has to ride.... 'improved tires' and he is riding all the time with one or both of them sliding.... imagine if he actually had TRACTION..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I will entertain no other thoughts till somebody explains why Schwantz and Rainey still hold absolute track records at some tracks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There are some things in the world that are resistant to improvement due to barriers of physics.

American Dirttrack racing has not gotten any faster (laptimes) for the exact same reasons... >> They have tried almost everything they can to make a finite sized patch of "rubber" get more grip over a necessary period of time on the surfaces it has to ride on.... No improvement in several years.

I believe MX bikes are really not any faster than they were 18 years ago (a magazine test 2 years ago showed 1 1/2% improvement at a test track from bikes 18 years old to new ones).... There are limits... the limits are created by size and weight and the fact that a human being has to ride them.
More HP won't make them faster... the human can't hang on for long enough.
To get more travel for bumps the bikes become too big.. and won't turn fast enough.

The means by which we propel rockets into outer space has not improved in 40 years... they still use largely the same fuels and processes they did way back then.

Some things reach a point of dramatically diminishing returns on development.

The evolution of electronics and related equipment is astonishing to me.... You open a box on a brand new piece of equipment, and it is actually obsolete.

Tires.... apparently not.

Almost all racebike development over the last 10 to 15 years has been to get the frame, suspension, and motor to be easier on the tires...to maintain the limited traction available.

I'm sure I have bored and annoyed you with all my continued haranguing on this same subject (and I will try to avoid it)... but I believe it to be the truth... and it is not going to change.

When I get off the computer here... I am going out to the garage and finish building a 4 1/2" wide 19" dia rim for my ice race bike (true)... I need MORE TRACTION...

[Airhead]

Eliphino,

You have done really well here by breathing some needed breath into what has been of late a dead forum.

I do agree with the Lazy One and the technicolour yawn though regarding tyres.

[dododo]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I will entertain no other thoughts till somebody explains why Schwantz and Rainey still hold absolute track records at some tracks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just got of my nightshift. Couldn't resist lookin' on the forum. I'll try to keep it brief, i want to go to sleep

Tires haven't improved over the last 10 years? Oh yes they have! Maybe outright grip hasn't improved but just because these records haven't been broken doesn't mean there hasn't been any improvement. Focal point of tire development never has been the laprecord or outright grip but consistancy (in grip) thru-out the race, going the distance and controlability.
Would the laptimes come down if grip would be better? I don't think so. I think the bikes would get unrideable. The bikes would try to make salto's at the slightest provocation
The riders want to control gripping and sliding. That fine line is where they try to improve the tires apart from trying to keep them consistant.


Well, so much for keeping it brief. I'm of to bed

[elephino]

Moff, I'm doing well considering I have hardly said anything. But now I will say something.

1. It is possible to get a tyre to last a race distance with a 200hp bike...they just haven't made it yet. Technically that should read "it will be possible".

2. Garry didn't win the championship, but he did win races.

3. Just cos Garry slides the bike doesn't mean the tyres are worn out. He is sliding that thing from lap 1 most races..or at the very least, before the tyres go off. It is his riding style.

Tyres have improved a lot and are always improving, just like the bikes and just like everything else. It is like saying that just cos the 2000 McLaren looks like the 1999 McLaren they are the same thing.

I probably have more to say, but I'm having problems with my connection...

[Airhead]

Eliphino.

I still think tyres are the limiting factor. Yes Garry slides because it is his riding style, but because he has no grip as the tyres are stuffed.

Garry (as an aside) really reminds me of Wayne Gardner, now I'm showing all of my 38 years! Only he stays on more.

[elephino]

I never said that they weren't a limiting factor.

And you're not showing your age that much as I remember Wayne racing 500s...and even when he won the championship in 1987.

[ernesto emmi]

I agree about the fact that tyres will be a problem in 2002. That why Bridgestone star testing with Erv Kanemoto. You can see the first pictures on http://www.gpone.com, the site is in italian, but very easy to understand.

[elephino]

Welcome to the forum ernesto.

Now all I need to do is brush up on my non-existent italian.

[chunder]

I want to go back to the fact that some riders still hold lap records from years ago.
Even Doohan couldn't beat some of those records and he and Rainey agreed that tyres were the limiting factor. If anything Wayne said you now had too much grip. Before you could slide the front into the bend easily (!) and then just crack it open to square it off on exit. Now the front doesn't slide and the rear doesn't either as much so the whole process changes, suspension setup changes, power characteristics, everything.Also engineers had to set bikes up for the new tyres and riders like Cadalora and Biaggi who don't like to slide
Let's face it, it was only a couple of tracks that were left anyway and at Donington, Corser beat Schwantz's record on a Ducati, then Doohan and Crafar went a second quicker in 98.
As for McCoy, he would ride anything like that, I even saw him sliding the twin a few years ago, but hey can u imagine on Dunlops!!!!

[djb]

Evening folks, interesting topic here. First of all, a bit of an intro-I've been hanging around the car forums for a few months, but although I have been following both the WSB and 500GP races this year, unfortunately they have been via a friend of mine who lives in another province where they can get Speedvision. Hence, I tend to get the tapes he tapes for me long after the races, sometimes even a few months. All this is to say that I have studiously been avoiding looking at any forums, websites, mags etc that would ruin the drama-would Roberts crash out and injure himself and let Rossi catch up, would McCoy slide around all of them and win more races, etc, etc etc....
Now that I have seen the final races, I can finally pop in...
In my teens and early twenties, I had a number of bikes, and one summer raced an '82 RD-350LC in local production races-the bike was already no longer competitive, but there were scads of guys like me racing on the cheap with RD's, and if a heavy guy in the 550 or 750 class wasn't very good, you could rely on the light weight of the RD to stuff 'em in braking and tight corners. That said, I was a backmarker, always a backmarker, but a backmarker having loads and loads of fun and there were always consolation races for us guys....
I'm not up on all the tech aspects of both series, partly cuz of my strange situation of having to avoid finding out results, but reading your comments made me think of a few things.
-are the lap records from years past the result of slight track layout changes? A few feet here and there can really make the difference between backing off abit and taking something flat out.
-re: the comment about improving power delivery over outright top hp recalls Rossi saying this year that the 500 was easier for him to ride in the rain than his 250 Aprilia, and I don't think he was simply bragging.
-are all these talks of 4-strokes entering the 500 races just something the companies are playing with, or is more of a real thing?
-personally, with my limited experience of really only following the last two or three years of GP races (and sometimes sporadically) I would have to agree that the extra power and weight doesn't bode well for both wear and wheelspin, and keeping the front wheel down.

When I look back at the this years racing I have watched, both 4 and 2-wheeled, the most exciting stuff that comes to mind was always the 2 wheelers- the British wildcards whopping everyone at Brands and Donnington, Waldman nipping in to win at Donington on the drying track; Rossi getting his first slip slidey win at Donington too I think; McCoy doing his thing here and there....

There is nothing like good clean, very competitive bike racing to get the pulse racing, and to make up for dozing while watching a F1 race- too much aerodynamic interference from following cars, very little tire management, passing only in the pits sometimes, the amazing lack of track manners that some of them have towards others (hey, they can get away with it, carbon fibre AND FIA rulings).

I am really looking forward to this years 500 season, it promises to be a real wonker-aren't Jacques and his Japanese teammate coming up to the 500's as well. It will all be very very interesting....I hope to be able to discuss it with you.

[elephino]

Welcome to the bike side djb.

To answer a couple of your questions..

yes, Olivier Jacque, Shinya Nakano and the whole Chesterfield Yamaha team are moving up to the 500s.
The lap records are from the same circuit layouts as if there are changes then there needs to be a new record set on those changes as the laps are not comparable.

[asha]

In relation to 4 strokes. I agree with Jermery Burgess (val's engineer) "they should keep it to 500cc".
1000cc is not GP. It has no tradition in GP! (Valentino rossi also thinks "a race bike is 2 stoke")

And as far as more power! Why??
Mick Doohan more then once had his bike at the end of the season taken back to Japan to "improve it", where the engineers added more power!. They didn't listen to him, he didn't want more power and would again and again go back to the old bike from the previous season.
It seems that the riders want more feed back from both bike and tyres because they know that's what makes them win. Hence, tyres aren't developed for speed, because speed doesn't win races, 'feel' does.

This said, at the end of this season Doohan was saying he was in favour of 4 strokes because they add "machanical mystery" to GP??

I certainly know what I'd like to be riding come 2002, a bike with tradition and balance! Not flatline speed (which most racers don't consider racing) and mystery!

[KC]

The 2 strokes may have a lot of tradition in GP, but the manufacturers are racing to sell bikes. In this the Superbike formula does a better job of selling bikes than a 500cc 2 stroke model that is not legal to ride in most countries. I do agree that 1 liter machines are probably too much and would prefer the 750cc route.

I can't blame the manufacturers, it is after all a business. And they believe that 4 strokes are a better marketting tool for them than 500 GP bikes currently are.

[GroupB4me]

It seems to me that Four strokes in GP's has more to do with the success of Superbikes than anything else.
More power with a 4 stroke, definitely but what racers need is more USEABLE power.
The amount of revs used to produce the big power levels are going to be way up there, what sort of power band will we be looking at? Will we see the engineers lopping in a couple or three more gears to keep the things on the boil? Sounds like 4stroking is only going to make GP's more expensive and elitist.

As for the tyre manufacturers,God help them!
With regards to McCoys use of tyres, it is his belief that it actually saves them. He believes that spinning them up out of corners generates heat only on the outside of the tread whereas going for the total limt of grip at once causes the whole depth of the tyre to stress and heat.
This has been proven comparing his and Laconi's tyres after sessions.

[Lazy Boy]

KC ...You act like the manufacturers created this situation... Or that they like it.

They did not create it... A racing organization did to save their own rear ends... (and you can bet that that is why Doohan has come down on the side of 4 str's also.. to "save" GP racing).

The manufacturers have created an organization (MSMA?) and had meeting's over what they are supposed to do about this mess.

My opinion is that they would like it if they could use the existing technology from WSB... but they can't ... yet.

As far as selling bikes... What difference does it really make to a fan whether he is watching a 2 stroke that he can't buy a version of... or a 4 stroke that he can't buy a version of? (they have to be prototypes).


The best solution?
I'll say it again.

Take the Production racing classes (streetbikes with minimal mods) and rename them WSB... and move WSB bikes (with their current rules, or close) into GP against the 2 strokes.

I bet it happen's within 3 years.

It is the only thing that makes sense.

GP racing might have to come up with a big $$$$$$ payoff the owners of WSB to let this happen.

Nostradamus ...

[asha]

Been thinking about this power (or to much of) question.

When it occured to me that with the power management systems (computers and what not) they could dial the engine to respond (with relative power curves) just like the 2 stroke bikes. Except for say the top of sixth gear.
This would give them simliar bikes except for flatline speed. I know that two thirds down the strait the back wheel of a Gp bike is still spinning, hence with a 4 stroke will probably more wear more tyre but its something this debate should consider! Its not like they'll be unrideable!

As far as WSB goes. I have to tip my hand and say I perfer and am a fan of GP bikes! So what if you can't buy em, I'm a student i can't afford any kind of bike.
You know what? you can't buy a formula 1 car either, doesn't mean people don't still buy BMW's or Meced.-Bens
Like most of us would be able to control a 500 anyway?


Yes, i know the touring car/formula 1 description doesn't work anymore with WSB & GP. But prototypes are prototypes
and there is not reason to have Dick Johnson racing Eddie Irvine just because there lap are similar! (of coarse in that example they're not but you get what i mean)

To put them together would spoil the tradition of each!

One last thing, lap times **** times, the last race of the season at Phillip Island was a slow race (compared to previous years) but what a race! (see what Chris Walker says about it on motogp.com) it have everything!! (except lap times)! You can't tell me that anyone can notice the difference of lap times just by watching
"Oh i'm sure that was .000002 sec. slower then the last lap,
Didn't it seem slow? They should sack that Guy!!!"