Non Standard 956 / 962s in WEC / WSPC

[lj79]

There were loads of these over the years, I think the JFR JDavid 956 at Brands 83 was the first deviation from the factory standard.

We had Thompson chassis, the RLR / BLR chassis and aero package, Kremer's fin on the engine cowl then the CK6s, Bruns various trick bodywork packages, Joest in 89 and 90 with the short tail etc, etc

The least effective has to have been the appalling Max Bostrom designed aero package for Schuppan at LM 91, which had a brief run in qualifying and was then binned for a standard aero package ( a new chassis IIRC).

Question is, how effective were these various mods or was it just miniscule differences that were made? The Lloyd car was good, but only really special in 87.

Was the standard factory issue ulitmately better than the various derivatives?

[JAG]

A lack of downforce was the problem for the 956/962.

The short tail 'Joest' cars, which were developed by the factory, seemed very, very good, even in the early 90's.

My favourite is the Joest IMSA GTP car from 91/92 with the twin tear rear wing.

Unfortuantly we never saw these cars in Europe as they were restricted so much against the 3.5 atmo cars.

[lj79]

Yes - that is a cracking looking car. I think its 92-93 though. My favourite modified 956 / 962 are the Brun cars with the tail cut off and centrally mounted wing from 88 onwards. Not sure how effective though

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by lj79

Was the standard factory issue ulitmately better than the various derivatives?

Ultimately no, and hence the various derivatives. Porsche found themselves behind the 8-ball aerodynamically when guys like Tony Southgate began to get involved. But the 956/962 was the total package and even though it certainly was at a disadvantage aerodynamically, it took the competition a while to develop their total package. I recently spoke with Mike Colucci regarding the Busby Porsche 962 they ran in IMSA in 1989. They were pushed into modifying their car simply because of the competition in IMSA at the time (Jaguar, Nissan). The various mods they carried out, while not developed empirically, when put on the car, made a dramatic difference. Certainly some mods were more successful than others, but ultimately the privateers had little option but to try and make their cars quicker and hence the many many variations of Porsche 962.


http://www.mulsannescorner.com/Porsche-MF7.jpg
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/Porsche-MF9.jpg
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/Porsche-MF1.jpg
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/Porsche-MF5.jpg

[BSchneiderFan]

The Dyson car remains one of the most radical (and in my view most interesting) variations on the 956/962 theme. Wasn't all that successful though...

[BSchneiderFan]

It also makes me wish Audi had taken the same approach with the R8. Even Ayse might have warmed to a dozen R8s, all with their idiosyncracies! Wasn't that supposed to be one of the main reasons that Rob Dyson didn't buy an Audi, Ingolstadt's unwillingness to let his team tinker with the car?

[Aysedasi]

I accept that. If the R8 could have been produced in quantity and made available to customer teams. Trouble is, it needed some competition too....

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Trouble is, it needed some competition too....

Until the Jag's and Mercs turned up in the late 80's the competition for any 956 was pretty much other 956's. A bit like GT2 now, if you want a fast reliable car, you buy a Porsche, anything else is a gamble.

Maybe if Dyson did'nt 'tinker' quite so much with is current cars they may finish a bit more often, just a thought.

[JAG]

If Dyson went for LMP675 class victories they could probably finish and win every race.

The problems occur when the samll LMP675's are pushed to, and beyond their limits to compete with the LMP900/LMP1's.

[The Badger]

I remember Stuck saying that the best Porsche 962 he had ever driven was his Le Mans example which he shared with Boutsen-Bouchet . It was a Kremer CK6 "MOTUL" . Only problem was that it handled like a pig in the wet ..... guess what happened in the race !!! He tried to drive the balls off it but !!!

I suppose by the time all these mods were coming online the 962 was an ol'gal and the newer cars were a lot more advanced .

The porsche 956/962 used a very primative form of bonding metel . Basically the mating surface's were bonded together with a glue impregnated material when the Jag's were already using a carbon fibre tub . The bond used to deterioriate over time and the result was "chassis flex" . Most of the bigger teams had a new example every Le Mans .

The John Fitzpatrick mod was the first mod that beat the works teams and was designed by Nigel Stroud . It involved blanking off some underbody vents which supposedly increased their venturi effect .

There was 19 of them at Le Mans in 1989 ..... my first and they all looked great !!!

[Danske]

IIRC, Fabcar made some improvements in the construction of the 962's they built. There might be something about that on their website, but I don't have the link handy.

[BSchneiderFan]

Didn't FABCAR build the Dyson 962?

[fausto]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I remember Stuck saying that the best Porsche 962 he had ever driven was his Le Mans example which he shared with Boutsen-Bouchet . It was a Kremer CK6 "MOTUL" . Only problem was that it handled like a pig in the wet ..... guess what happened in the race !!! He tried to drive the balls off it but !!!

I suppose by the time all these mods were coming online the 962 was an ol'gal and the newer cars were a lot more advanced .

The porsche 956/962 used a very primative form of bonding metel . Basically the mating surface's were bonded together with a glue impregnated material when the Jag's were already using a carbon fibre tub . The bond used to deterioriate over time and the result was "chassis flex" . Most of the bigger teams had a new example every Le Mans .

The John Fitzpatrick mod was the first mod that beat the works teams and was designed by Nigel Stroud . It involved blanking off some underbody vents which supposedly increased their venturi effect .

There was 19 of them at Le Mans in 1989 ..... my first and they all looked great !!!

The Motul Kremer was a spider version of the car, che K8
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-06-18-004.jpg

I don't remember Nigel Stroud being involved with John Fitzpatrick Racing, he was instead with Richard Lloyd since they started modifying the 956 and then doing the 962 specials....at that time he was also working with Mazda (starting with the 757....)

[vs346]

That's when you know you made a heck of a car when some form or shape of it is still racing in 1995 (K8) some 13 years after the original.

That's why in my book, the 956/962 was more influential than the 917s.

[mountainstar]

And winning too at daytona 1995. I think someone ran a 962 in Belgium Gt in the late 90's and won making that the last modern win for the type.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I remember Stuck saying that the best Porsche 962 he had ever driven was his Le Mans example which he shared with Boutsen-Bouchet . It was a Kremer CK6 "MOTUL" . Only problem was that it handled like a pig in the wet ..... guess what happened in the race !!! He tried to drive the balls off it but !!!

I suppose by the time all these mods were coming online the 962 was an ol'gal and the newer cars were a lot more advanced .

The porsche 956/962 used a very primative form of bonding metel . Basically the mating surface's were bonded together with a glue impregnated material when the Jag's were already using a carbon fibre tub . The bond used to deterioriate over time and the result was "chassis flex" . Most of the bigger teams had a new example every Le Mans .

The John Fitzpatrick mod was the first mod that beat the works teams and was designed by Nigel Stroud . It involved blanking off some underbody vents which supposedly increased their venturi effect .

There was 19 of them at Le Mans in 1989 ..... my first and they all looked great !!!

What I understand about Porsche's bonding method is that they deteriorated over time as you said, but the issue was how they were bonded intially. The bonding tape that Porsche used was heat activated. When it came to production, in a typical run, Porsche would fabircate X number of tubs in a given time period and then heat cure them all together. So the first ones fabricated in a given time period sat until all being made for the run were completed. The adhesive's out-life was such that typically the tubs that waited the longest before heat curing were the ones that degridated the quickest. The resin in the adhesive essentially began to cure out as the tubs sat waiting to head into the oven thus reducing the adhesion characteristics when they did finally see heat.

[Dan Rear]

Anyone know why the RLR team didn't call their car a "Lloyd", or "RLR/BLR" rather than a Porsche 956/962, cos', engine apart, it had very little in common with normal 956/962s. Was there some homologation rule, or maybe for carnet reasons.

If nothing else it had have given some welcome variety to entry lists !!

[fausto]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Anyone know why the RLR team didn't call their car a "Lloyd", or "RLR/BLR" rather than a Porsche 956/962, cos', engine apart, it had very little in common with normal 956/962s. Was there some homologation rule, or maybe for carnet reasons.

If nothing else it had have given some welcome variety to entry lists !!

maybe Porsche Cup ranking had something to do with it, they had some support from Porsche Great Britain too....

[KA]

Originally Posted by fausto

maybe Porsche Cup ranking had something to do with it, they had some support from Porsche Great Britain too....

As you said, support from Porsche GB might well have had something to do with it- the Lloyd 962 appeared several times with Porsche Cars GB as a major sponsor, and I can't imagine the PCGB backing would have been offered had they renamed the car

I remember their modified 956 sometimes being referred to as the '956GTi', (the Lloyd outfit was originally called GTi Engineering), but I don't recall the 962- which as Dan said probably contained more 'Lloyd' than it did 'Porsche', being referred to as anything other than simply a 962

Incidentally, how many chassis did they have? In the early Canon 956 days, they occasionally fielded a second car, but wasn't there only one rebuilt with their own 'GTi' chassis? (think I read somewhere that the original chassis for that car was sold to Walter Brun).

I know they fielded a pair of 962s on occasion, but didn't they have a 'standard' 962 at Le Mans once as well?

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Anyone know why the RLR team didn't call their car a "Lloyd", or "RLR/BLR" rather than a Porsche 956/962, cos', engine apart, it had very little in common with normal 956/962s. Was there some homologation rule, or maybe for carnet reasons.

If nothing else it had have given some welcome variety to entry lists !!

On an oversubscribed entry list (e.g. Le Mans) you're going to pick Porsches over homebuilt specials, surely? -- except if such homebuilt specials are (say) DB/CD/WM/WRs

Another Porsche 962 had some credibility - a Lloyd-Porsche was just a mongrel special.

And from there of course it was the thin end of the wedge; how long until you had Thompson-Porsches, Klym-Porsches, Schuppan-Porsches?

[fausto]

Originally Posted by KA

As you said, support from Porsche GB might well have had something to do with it- the Lloyd 962 appeared several times with Porsche Cars GB as a major sponsor, and I can't imagine the PCGB backing would have been offered had they renamed the car

I remember their modified 956 sometimes being referred to as the '956GTi', (the Lloyd outfit was originally called GTi Engineering), but I don't recall the 962- which as Dan said probably contained more 'Lloyd' than it did 'Porsche', being referred to as anything other than simply a 962

Incidentally, how many chassis did they have? In the early Canon 956 days, they occasionally fielded a second car, but wasn't there only one rebuilt with their own 'GTi' chassis? (think I read somewhere that the original chassis for that car was sold to Walter Brun).

I know they fielded a pair of 962s on occasion, but didn't they have a 'standard' 962 at Le Mans once as well?

Some reports/books called it 962GTi, sometimes adding chassis number,if I remember well they built one chassis for Dyson Racing (circa 1987), and four WSPC, the first one (106?/used by Lloyd in 1987) was sold to Japan (Team Trust), two were used by Richard Lloyd Racing from 1988 to 2000 (200 and 201), the fourth was the ADA LM 1992 car, however there could be an unraced fifth chassis....

At LM 1990 they raced a standard long tail 962, that could be Nick Mason car, bought to do just Le Mans, for pedigree reasons....

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by KA

As you said, support from Porsche GB might well have had something to do with it- the Lloyd 962 appeared several times with Porsche Cars GB as a major sponsor, and I can't imagine the PCGB backing would have been offered had they renamed the car

I remember their modified 956 sometimes being referred to as the '956GTi', (the Lloyd outfit was originally called GTi Engineering), but I don't recall the 962- which as Dan said probably contained more 'Lloyd' than it did 'Porsche', being referred to as anything other than simply a 962

Incidentally, how many chassis did they have? In the early Canon 956 days, they occasionally fielded a second car, but wasn't there only one rebuilt with their own 'GTi' chassis? (think I read somewhere that the original chassis for that car was sold to Walter Brun).

I know they fielded a pair of 962s on occasion, but didn't they have a 'standard' 962 at Le Mans once as well?

That chassis was also known as 956-106B before being called 956-gti . It was never sold to Brun Motorsport ..... Its in private hands now .

[Dan Rear]

I'm sure their original, Weissach built car, 956-106, was sold to Brun. IIRC this was mid-84, after it won the Brands 1000kms (what a dull race that was!), and after they'd got the first "Lloyd Porsche" working. I'm certain Brun used in in late 85, and then thru' 86 on their way to the title.

[The Badger]

I will check my 956/962 bible later on . I also seem to remember a good few years back that RLR had adds in Autosport selling off about 4 or 5 of their cars and 106B was on that list i think !!! I'll check ......

[The Badger]

Porsche 956-106

Competition Group: C

Constructed For: Richard Lloyd, England

Ownership History: Richard Lloyd, Brun (1985), O'Neill (2003)

Competition Highlights: 1st Brands Hatch 1984

Chassis Notes: dismantled to provide parts for 956-106B, bare chassis and some parts sold to Brun, rebuilt and raced during 1985 and 1986, retained by Brun as show car in 1987.