IOM TT Pros/Cons

[Dani Filth]

i'm afraid actually to check up on this thread ..
just fear of other deaths

[chunder]

Thats why I will never support the TT.

I have great admiration for the riders that race there, but little respect. Either for your family of your friends and fellow race fans. I am not riding with them but feel very sad when guys get killed there.

You can tell me they know the risks all you want, I still think it's selfish and ignorant!!

Your chances of getting hurt or killed are vastly increased at this track, yet some people continue to believe it is the purest form of racing.

For me, anyone who races there these days is not able to cut it at short circuit level so goes to the TT to conquer a different challenge and let's face it make money!!

It has a certain wow factor, but every year we lose someone who is a Dad, brother, friend or something. For me it's too much of a proce to pay.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

i'm afraid actually to check up on this thread ..
just fear of other deaths

Me too. I hope this kind of road racing is outlawed very very soon. That's not what motorsport in 2011 is about. What was learned from the tragedy earlier on this week... nothing whatsoever.

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Me too. I hope this kind of road racing is outlawed very very soon. That's not what motorsport in 2011 is about. What was learned from the tragedy earlier on this week... nothing whatsoever.

I raced sidecars for many years and now race cars. I can assure you Davy, that all forms of motorsport are dangerous and I strongly suspect that if they were not we wouldn't bother to do it. There were a number of guys I knew well in my sidecar days killed, at short curcuits, airfield tracks and road races. Although I have never done the calculation, I think that if you divided the incredible number of miles run at the TT by the number of deaths you will find that it isn't a whole lot, if at all, more dangerous than any other form of motor cycle racing. Unfortunately you are right about leaving grieving relatives, but so do people who have died on the roads on the way to work, smoked themselves to death or just run out of luck with their health.
I raced at the Southern 100 at the IOM on many occasions, so I do have experience of road races and it remains a great shame to me that I never bothered to get an International Licence which I would have needed for the TT.

[Hubble]

Whilst it's always sad to hear of deaths and severe injuries at the TT (and other road races), I wouldn't want it to be stopped......yes there is a somewhat increased chance of injury or even death there, but all the riders love doing it....

If we want to go down the route of not doing dangerous things just because we have loved ones or people who care for us it'll be a dull life for us all...

Better not drive to work in case I'm involved in an accident...best not go cycling either.....or skiing....or footballing....or skydiving....in fact pick anything and you'll find that someone has died or been seriously injured doing it....and maybe not too long ago either....

I think we have to learn to accept the risks of what is for me the ultimate in motorsport....yes it's unforgiving, but that is what makes it so good to watch.... Kudos to those guys/gals....and respect to those who lost their lives this week doing what they loved.....

Incidentally, last years TT maestro Ian Hutchinson isn't taking part this year due to the broken leg he sustained while racing at......Silverstone.....

[davyboy]

My feelings on this issue are well documented here on 10-10ths and I always take a bashing every time I mention it. Its without question that motor cycle road racing is far more dangerous than any other form of motor sport... be it statistically or otherwise. Yes motor racing remains a dangerous sport but over the years it has become significantly safer through improvements in vehicles, safety gear AND circuits. The TT and other road courses in Ireland are the the exception.

In any event, I'm sure I'll take a bashing again for what I've said here, but I find it both shocking and heartbreaking to read about deaths at EVERY SINGLE Isle of Man TT event. Though danger won't be eliminated completely, in 2011, there are safer ways for us to enjoy this sport without incessantly killing people and leaving behind grieving relatives and friends.

[chunder]

You are right davyboy, and being from Ireland you maybe know a little more about the roads racing, though that is mainly in the North I guess.

I have no big issue with it, but I do think the riders involved are very selfish and have little respect for their families or even the sport. Bad headlines are never good, and it doesn't take a lot these days to get a windfall of public opinion against you.

Yes, it's a great challenge, perhaps the greatest. But most of the riders out there are pretty much failed short track riders. They failed at that because they were not bought up on it (the Irish boys) or they were not good enough to cut it for many years at the top level. Some did like Plater and McGuinness, but at the very top were never good enough to win the big races and classes. PLater was alright on a Superbike but crashed his way from contract to contract, McGuinn was ace on a 250 but never a Superbike.

Does this factor in to the fatality list? Jeffries was no slouch on short tracks but never a proven winner, Dunlop was the best ever on roads but never world class (dont bring up the F1 world series as he was on by far the best bike and most rounds were road events) on a short track. Many were good at both, Robert Dunlop (before accident) Mark Farmer, Mick Grant, Hizzie, Rutter, Ian Simpson.

I don't think this means a lot, but I just think these days the IoM makes enough money to warrant a safer track. 131mph laps around there are insane. Yes it's safer, but cmon guys.

I am far from the nanny state type, I have been involved in very off the wall and risky races in the past but in this day and age it's insane that an event where people are killed EVERY year as davy says is allowed to continue purely for the riders enjoyment with no care to the detriment of the sport, it's image or the families of those concerned.

[Pete123]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Me too. I hope this kind of road racing is outlawed very very soon. That's not what motorsport in 2011 is about. What was learned from the tragedy earlier on this week... nothing whatsoever.

But why? It is good to see something finally not going along with the namby pamby health and safety crap

[Pete123]

Originally Posted by Hubble

Better not drive to work in case I'm involved in an accident...best not go cycling either.....or skiing....or footballing....or skydiving....in fact pick anything and you'll find that someone has died or been seriously injured doing it....and maybe not too long ago either....
.

I agree on that, I know people that have been seriously injured in various sports(due to my Hyperactiveness and doing too many sports )

[ghinzani]

Every year the same arguments for and against, end up dominating the actual thread detailing the action. Cant we hive these arguments off into a sperate thread that we wheel out each year. Davy thats not a dig mate, I appreciate your views, just I like to keep up with the action without the Pros and Cons debate. Although their Twitter feed is pretty good, actually making me look at Twitter for a change.

Bike mods, how about a splitting off?

[chunder]

Yeah coz the bike forum is overwhelmed with opinion just now huh!

Jeez

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by chunder

Thats why I will never support the TT.

I have great admiration for the riders that race there, but little respect. Either for your family of your friends and fellow race fans. I am not riding with them but feel very sad when guys get killed there.

You can tell me they know the risks all you want, I still think it's selfish and ignorant!!

Your chances of getting hurt or killed are vastly increased at this track, yet some people continue to believe it is the purest form of racing.

For me, anyone who races there these days is not able to cut it at short circuit level so goes to the TT to conquer a different challenge and let's face it make money!!

It has a certain wow factor, but every year we lose someone who is a Dad, brother, friend or something. For me it's too much of a proce to pay.

I think you might be surprised if you dig up statistics about how many people are killed falling down stairs or off ladders, or by their toasters or slipping in their bathtub or by drunken driving, mountain climbing, boxing, push bike riding and so on.

At least here in the USA around 5000 people a year die falling off roofs or down stairs. And I can believe it, in the small, small town I live, 2 people died in the past year, one slipped off a roof he was repairing and another fell from a ladder.

I'm not saying it isn't a tragedy what happens at the TT almost every year, but lets put it in perspective and there are many common every day tasks either being in our home, work or in between that are just as risky.

And consider how lethal motorcycle riding is on the road, not just from motorcycle riders but stupid people that can't drive and pay attention.

If we are going to outlaw the TT, might as well outlaw motorcycles, cars, airplanes, stairs, bathtubs, beer, gas cookers, knives, ladders, hang gliders, push bikes, power tools, electricity and so on.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

....... Its without question that motor cycle road racing is far more dangerous than any other form of motor sport... be it statistically or otherwise. .........

......, in 2011, there are safer ways for us to enjoy this sport without incessantly killing people and leaving behind grieving relatives and friends.

Usually find myself in strong agreement with your views but not on this one.
It's certainly not 'without question' at all, I hold you to public account to justify - with evidence - your assertion.
And please, there's no need to use emotive language to try to support your view - the 'us' that enjoy the sport don't 'kill' anyone, that would be manslaughter or murder; some competitors die, and there are inquests, and accidental death is the outcome.
I respect absolutely the right of people like Guy Martin to do what they do, just as I respect your right to campaign against it.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

IAlthough I have never done the calculation, I think that if you divided the incredible number of miles run at the TT by the number of deaths you will find that it isn't a whole lot, if at all, more dangerous than any other form of motor cycle racing.

I can't find the source, but I remember reading somewhere a few years ago that the TT & Manx GP have a lower fatality rate per racing mile than short circuits.

[chunder]

This is the biggest issue with this race meeting.

It's exactly the same as Le Mans. Some people think it is the purest form and best mode of racing there is.

People like me think it's pointless, needless, unrecognisable as a bike race and really rather a shame.

And believe me, it has nothing at all to do with it being dangerous, any bike racing or motorsport is obviously dangerous. Pulling that card from the pocket is the same as saying Le Mans is a challenge coz it's a long race! Of course it is!!

The IoM could easily construct a world class race circuit. They won't because of tradition and money. You could probably even have a Grand Prix there, they wont because of tradition and money.

These are all valid arguments, but I just hate an event starting that I KNOW, KNOW someone is going to get killed. And selifishly I hope it isn't someone I support. As the weeks/months afterwards, yu just think.. What for?

Then something happens like McRae dying in a helicoptre full of innocents and Hizzie getting killed in a similar way and you think "well there you go, can happen to anyone"

Craig Jones got killed at Brands, Surtees died in the most freakish way ever known, but these were freak accidents. Someone getting killed at the TT isn't freakish, it is expected and that makes me very sad, sorry

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by chunder

People like me think it's pointless, needless, unrecognisable as a bike race and really rather a shame.

So why do you take such an interest in it? I have no real interest in F1, but I don't go on F1 Fora slagging it off for being (insert reasons why I have no interest). "People like me" get pretty fed up with the annual TT-bashing thread.

[chunder]

I talk about it because I am a fan of all bike racing. Including Motocross, speedway, trials etc. And because I have a dislike of events that not only are bordering on being unsafe but also that bring bike racing bad headlines aswell as good.

This whole forum and some of its members seem to think that if you are making a disparaging comment about a post you are just trying to cause trouble or a troll. Forums should not only be about people always saying things are great, the world is wonderful etc etc.

Forums are about opinion. If you do not agree with my or anyone's opinion then put forward an argument or an opinion of your own. I care not if people disagree with me, and encourage the discussion, whether people agree or not.

We are not designed to agree all the time and simply asking someone not to post on a subject they have a passionate opinion of is a little unfair.

I will post on F1, sportscars or anything else when I experience them, but don't take enough of an interest and in all honesty a lot of those sections here are a little cliquey. If you post things that are controversial or opinionated they tend to just delete your posts. Fair enough I guess.

TT racing for me is more of an event than a race. Bit like Le Mans as I said earlier. I have admiration for the riders but it is a show for guys that are not able to be world class in normal racing. They are road specialists as McNish is an endurance specialist or Lamy is a Ferrari GT2 man. It is not what it was and the reason for that is that most riders at the top level of bike racing agree it is too unsafe and old fashioned now. Simples.

They are still Gods, still able to make me go wow, but I sadly cannot agree that it is a good idea sorry.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

Every year the same arguments for and against, end up dominating the actual thread detailing the action. Cant we hive these arguments off into a sperate thread that we wheel out each year. Davy thats not a dig mate, I appreciate your views, just I like to keep up with the action without the Pros and Cons debate. Although their Twitter feed is pretty good, actually making me look at Twitter for a change.

Bike mods, how about a splitting off?

No problem Steve... its better in its own thread.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Usually find myself in strong agreement with your views but not on this one.
It's certainly not 'without question' at all, I hold you to public account to justify - with evidence - your assertion.

It has been evidenced previously. There was even an investigative documentary about it several years ago... and regrettably many more people have died since.

Originally Posted by MGDavid

And please, there's no need to use emotive language to try to support your view - the 'us' that enjoy the sport don't 'kill' anyone, that would be manslaughter or murder; some competitors die, and there are inquests, and accidental death is the outcome.

The fact our society tolerates this means that we're all culpable, albeit indirectly. How would we feel about Formula One drivers or MotoGP riders using leather caps rather than helmets ? How would we feel about removing all protective barriers and allowing spectators to stand next to the track at Grand Prix circuits ? What about televised Russian roulette ? If these were permitted, there would be people who would do them. Do we respect them ? Do we say, they died enjoying what they were doing ?

That I've an interest in motor sport does not mean I have no interest in making it as safe as possible.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

........That I've an interest in motor sport does not mean I have no interest in making it as safe as possible.

Have you seen the film 'TT3D Closer to the edge' yet?
Guy says it all, so simple and so eloquent - "of course it's dangerous, that's why I do it".
I cannot really add to that except to say that I identify with it completely.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by davyboy

........
That I've an interest in motor sport does not mean I have no interest in making it as safe as possible.

When you want to make motorsport as safe as possible you might as well ban it all on road and other circuits and televise someone doing it in a simulator. But even then there will be people whingeing about it coz participants could possibly get cramps or squared eyes or succumbing from more than 24h in front of a big screen

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Have you seen the film 'TT3D Closer to the edge' yet?
Guy says it all, so simple and so eloquent - "of course it's dangerous, that's why I do it".
I cannot really add to that except to say that I identify with it completely.

^^^^Spot on^^^^

[Hubble]

Just because we're not all out there campaigning for it to be banned doesn't make us all responsible, nor is society. There are enough warnings etc - the riders can make up their own minds.....and if they choose to do it then we can choose (or not) to watch them....I for one will....

Lets not get carried away saying that by doing nothing we are all culpable.

I also think you're forgetting that safety improvements have been made at the circuit over the years, and at other road circuits, largely with recommendations from the riders/drivers.....it's safer now than in years past, but that doesn't stop accidents.....

[chunder]

As previously mentioned you can't have any common ground on this argument.

I guess while you have riders who want to risk it all then you will have an event. It's just a shame that so many have to be lost, but thankfully most of them are older and achieved a lot before they have gone.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Hubble

Just because we're not all out there campaigning for it to be banned doesn't make us all responsible, nor is society. There are enough warnings etc - the riders can make up their own minds.....and if they choose to do it then we can choose (or not) to watch them....I for one will....

Lets not get carried away saying that by doing nothing we are all culpable.

There are people who will do extremely dangerous things and there are people who will support what these people do... right the way up to the point where there is no chance whatsoever of survival. There has to be limits. Society sets those limits. A society that can't set such limits is a bad society. For the most part our society here in the UK has got the balance absolutely right... for the most part that is... with one or two exceptions. This being one.