What constitues as a "dangerous position"?

[Sodemo]

Just curious as to this rule which was flexed at the weekend at nurburgring.
I was certain that ANY outside help resulted in disqualification from the race.

Wasn't Senna helped by marshals at Suzuka in 1988 after he and Prost clashed, he won the race only to be disqualified post race?

If TGF was say 6 metres further into the gravel, would that still have been deemed "dangerous"?

[Jay]

lol...if you're not behind a crash barrier anywhere on a track, you're in a dangerous position (and should move as quickly as possible to get out of there).

I think the question the marshalls are probably asking (and I'm not a marshall though I've dealt with quite a few) is 'How do we get this car and driver in safe position ASAP'. In some cases, it might be quick to push the car behind a barrier, in others, it might be easier to give the car a bump start and have it drive away - if the car is fully functional this is what's done. Whatever's easiest and will result in all parties being in safer positions as quickly as possible should be done.

Whether the driver should be disqualified is another question. In most racing series he'd be allowed to continue, but F1 isn't most series.

[DSM]

If I remember correctly Senna was disqualified because after being restarted he ran through a cut through, i,e, he didn't complete the lap on the track. Again IIRC, where there is gravel now there used to be part of the original track before the chicane.
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I do remember incorrectly!

[John Turner]

The Ferrari was definitely in a dangerous position and the best resolution was achieved. What should be investigated is how what appeared to be a spectator became involved in the pushed assistance.

[LittleX]

If TGF was say 6 metres further into the gravel, would that still have been deemed "dangerous"?

I would have thought so because the Marshals would still have needed to remove the car from the gravel.

What I am wondering is, from now on how many more drivers who get stuck in the gravel with their engines running are going to try and stay in the car and get the marshals to get them out? Where will the line be drawn on this vague rule?

[rpolinski]

Being near Schumacher in a corner is by passed event definately a dangerous position.

[Ralf's Girl]

It's another typically vague FIA rule, which means that Ferrari are able to exploit it as much as they please.

[BootsOntheSide]

Part of the car was on he track, so I guess it was a dangerous position. A car could easily have gone into the corner too deep, or attempting an overtaking move, or with defective brakes, and ploughed into Schumacher's car.

I disagree with Jay on this point, the whole history of F1 is that you can'tcontinue with a car which you couldn't keep in the race under your own steam. The car was beached in the gravel, so he should've been forced out. Still, we are talking about the man who intentionally parked a damaged car in the middle of the track to try to get a race stopped, so who knows?

[corkholio]

Senna got disqualified because Balestre wanted a fellow Frenchman to win the championship. He was lucky that Senna went the wrong way, otherwise they would not have any grounds to DQ him either.

Schumacher's car was definitely in a dangerous position, anytime a stationary car on hot track it should be so. If I am not mistaken, I think there have been instances where cars that stalled on the grid have been allowed to be push started or get the car fired in the pitlane allowed to "jin" the race in progress. Even in CART last year at Mid-Ohio they managed to dug da Matta out of the gravel and bring him back out onto the track. I don't see what Ferrari did wrong here since they didn't break any rules.

[PaulSands]

Schumi in the gravel at a German/Italian track = in a dangerous position
Kimi in the same situation in the same place = tow that sucka away
Or I'm I just uber cynical

[steve_r]

I don't think its a huge conspiracy. They could hardly of left him there could they??

[Stephen Green]

There are all sorts of things to consider in these cases.

Is the driver still in the car and are his seat belts still fastened?

Has the driver still got power or has the engine stalled?

Is the car in such a position that it's a real danger to other drivers?

Are the marshals able to get to the car and move it without putting their own lives in danger

and so on and so forth...

As an Observer (or post chief) one of the decisions I have to make is whether to ask for a race stop or a safety car in circumstances such as these. It's never an easy decision to come to, but one that has to be taken with speed and as much certainty as possible. To waver is to put the lives of my team at risk.

In the MS case this weekend the situation is vague only after the event. At the time of the 'off' there were two choices to make:

1. Ask marshals to push the car
2. Request a crane or snatch vehicle to remove the car

Arguably either decision is correct, it depends on your view of the incident by being there, not watching on a TV screen.

The rule regarding whether MS should have been allowed to continue is, I admit, somewhat vague, but then so are many others, especially relating to Formula 1.

The one thing that is right is that the race wasn't hindered by the actions of the marshals and a safety car situation was averted. The rest is up to the stewards.

As for the guy who appeared with the marshals but not dressed in our customary overals, we have no idea who he was. I can assure you of one thing though, without the necessary passes or authorisation, he wouldn't have been able to get trackside.

I hope that helps in some small way to clarify the situation?

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by The Monster


Wasn't Senna helped by marshals at Suzuka in 1988 after he and Prost clashed,

Senna's engine stalled and (unfortunately) TGF's did not.

BTW, in was 1989.

If the driver recieves outside assistance and the engine is restarted, then disqualification follows as sure as night follows day.

[corkholio]

Originally posted by Mattracer
Senna's engine stalled and (unfortunately) TGF's did not.

BTW, in was 1989.

If the driver recieves outside assistance and the engine is restarted, then disqualification follows as sure as night follows day.

I don't think that was the case. Senna was DQed for rejoining the race somewhere other than the spot where he was push started. He and Prost tangled at the Casio triangle and basically straightlined it after getting pushed started. If his engine had stalled the Balestre wouldn't have had to find a Mickey Mouse rule to DQ him.

[Glen]

The issue is that the engine was still running - you can't get re-started, but you can get pushed out of harm's way provided the engine is still running. These days the engines are usually running because they have software to take care of that.

[Hugh Jarce]

I may appear a bit naiive on this one (I don't eat Rule Books for lunch), but I totally agree with BootsOnTheSide - would it not be a whole lot clearer if we had the rule that if a car gets into a position where it can longer move under its own 'steam', be that stuck in gravel, stalled etc. it is out of the race.

To be honest watching those guys push him out made me draw breath. I had visions of someone 'steaming' around the bend hitting one of them. Think of the law suits if that spectator had been hit!

Surely to have 'craned' the car off would have only put MS in danger as he got out - and that's bad enough but probably the 'best case' scenario.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Ralf's Girl
It's another typically vague FIA rule, which means that Ferrari are able to exploit it as much as they please.

Maybe you'd like to give us a precise definition of a 'dangerous position', covering every possible type of incident, at every point on every track, for every possible combination of track condition, weather, etc?

[Hugh Jarce]

Bottom line - F1 IS a dangerous position!

Even for spectators - on Sunday I spilt my hot tea on my lap in excitment when DC crashed and Senor Alonso crusied away!

[twig]

I dont think MS should have been able to have been pushed by those marshalls, and if he would have been, to remove him from the dangerous position on the OUTSIDE of a hard breaking fastish corner.

It seemed as though if it would have been some other driver, the marshalls would not have touched the car, but TGF's ability to just holler out marshalls onto the track, not caring about the consequences, pushing him back onto the track, without a penalty, is absolutely nieve.

I dont like the idea of the rules being that if the marshalls assist the car out of the dangerous position, and the engine results in starting is very odd. Because, if the engine is still going, what good is it if it doesnt make the car move!?

And by the way, the person on the left moving the car was a marshal. Although he was in shorts and a t-shirt, he was the driver of the tractor thingo. Three marshalls ran, one was concealed by the tractor, whilst the driver jumped out a bit later.

A spectator would not have been able to have gotten onto the track that easily, or quickly.

TGF should have been penalised, as there is a rule pointed out by someone else on the boards that nobody is allowed to touch the car during the race, unless in pit lane.

So the two rules together make no sense.

[KC]

In CART it is allowed for a driver to get a bump start from race marshalls and return to the fray if his car is able to make it back to the pits for repairs and such. I've never seen any F1 driver get a helping hand from the marshalls and be allowed to continue. But, it is MS after all, and it appears that the FIA is desperate to get him another championship. Does anyone think that DC would have been afforded such support? Or JV? Or JPM? I really doubt it.

Certainly a stranded car needs to be removed, but that does not immediately assume that the offending car is allowed to continue.

[Stephen Green]

Let me just say that the marshals would have gone to the aid of ANY car and driver. We do not distinguish by favourites or teams. The marshals would also have been told by their chief to attend to MS, they would not have done it without his consent.

Lastly Twig, the engine was always running, it didn't start as a result of MS being pushed. Had the engine not been running there would have been no option other than to lift the car clear of the circuit with the crane/JCB

[gttouring]

yes i am of hte opinion that as the ferarri was still moving its rear tires Go and push it on the track, it was after all alf on the track, with the corner gravel trap turining into paved friction areas, had this been updated as well this conversation would be moot. so all considered half car on track, half off, and runnning just push him out, the marshalls didn't have to they had yellow flags they left behind in their posts-they took the risk by not waving-they make the call
and did DC have a chance getting out of his mess?

[twig]

Yes i know the engine was always running, but my point is that what is the point of the engine even being running, if it still doesnt enable the car to be moved by itself!?

A car shouldnt ever be assisted to a finish by a marshal.

The reason i was also suggesting Michael should have been penalised was because there is a rule somewhere that claims that nobody is allowed to touch the car, other than the driver, unless in the pitlane.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by gttouring
they had yellow flags they left behind in their posts-they took the risk by not waving-they make the call

I didn't see it, but I'm sure that the marshals didn't go trackside without waved yellows being displayed. You may not have seen the flags being waved because the flag point will have been some distance up the track from the incident. The people who deal with incidents are not flag marshals!

[twig]

Looking at the Sporting Regulations of the FIA, DC also could have been penalised. Well, McLaren could have.

Pit Lane

Article 66 (e)
Team personnel are only allowed in the pitlane immediatelly before they are required to work on a car and must withdraw as soon as the work is complete.

Remember DC's second stop, the mechanics popped out, then went back in again? tsk tsk tsk.