Helmet safety (was Open face helmets)

EvilPumpkin · 25 Sep 2006, 11:52 (Ref:1718358)

Hi all,

I started a thread in Racers about this, but I could use some feedback here as well.

Has anyone had an incident with a saloon car where the force of the accident actually removed the roof of the car and the driver's helmet?

It's a new one on me and frankly, gave me a bit of a fright. I'm not sure if this is a common one so I'd appreciate any feedback.

Cheers,
EP

chezza · 25 Sep 2006, 12:26 (Ref:1718389)

I've not experienced this, but surely if the helmet was removed by the force of the accident it wasn't fastened properly?

**Woolley** · 25 Sep 2006, 12:43 (Ref:1718410)

Ouch, sounds big. I've seen one or two where the driver list his helmet because it either wasn't correctly fastened or wasn't correctly fitting in the first place, and open-face seem more susceptable to this. I've also been to an incident where driver's chin met the steering wheel coming the other way and that wasn't pleasant. A full face helmet would have significantly reduced the injury, and probably have prevented it altogether.

I've never seen a car's roof removed, though. Squashed, yes.

EvilPumpkin · 25 Sep 2006, 12:58 (Ref:1719267)

Well that's one of the things I'm not sure about. The chin strap was still fastened when we found the helmet, so what I'm wondering about was the fit of the helmet.

Does anyone know if helmet fit is something that's checked at scrutiny?

I've no pics of the actual incident, but you can see a "before and after" on the car in this post.

chezza · 25 Sep 2006, 13:09 (Ref:1719281)

As far as I know "fit" isn't checked, just that the helmet is within current spec and regulations.

Suze · 25 Sep 2006, 13:56 (Ref:1719312)

Never seen the fit checked at scrutes = never seen a driver have to put it on to check - they just check that it is within specs and regs just loike they do with the overalls etc.

JimW · 25 Sep 2006, 14:17 (Ref:1719325)

I've seen/attended several accidents over the years where helmets have come off. More than one was full-faced but I have the impression that more were open-faced.

From memory I recall two where the strap was not done up when found, two/three where it was done up and two where the strap attchment had failed.

At first sight, I don't see why FF should perform much differently from OF. Helmets are held on by the strap under the jaw and the curve of the helmet under the back of the skull. To a first approximation these are very similar in OF/FF.

The chin bar in a FF helmet is not designed to catch on the nose and if it did so, I guess that the excess of force would be easily sufficient to deform/remove the nose rather than contribute to the helmet's retention.

Have a look at the ACU guidance on helmet sizing and you will see that fastening the strap and then rotating the helmet forward is the test they recommend.

So if someone has a helmet which is too large and then stops suddenly, I guess that is the accident mechanism which will test correct fitting to the limits.

Don't dismiss drivers who do not do up the strap, either at all or very loosely. See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=923753

And also http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...met#post930079

Regards

Jim

JimW · 25 Sep 2006, 14:36 (Ref:1719336)

Then of course there was the occasion at a Promenade sprint on the IoM when a driver came off, hit a lamppost and the car disappeared into the scenery.

Rescue unit dispatched, doctor wakes up and see orange helmet rolling down the road: THINKS "Oh dear his head's come off"!

Luckily, on investigation, it was the Belisha beacon* light which had been hit by the car.

Cue laughter all round.

Regards

Jim

*Caution: Too much information follows! Belisha beacon is the name which was given to a pole with a flashing orange globe, about 25cm in diameter, on top. Used to mark the location of pedestrian crossings in the UK (and IoM). Named after a UK Minister of Transport at the time 'Zebra' crossings were introduced.

EvilPumpkin · 25 Sep 2006, 14:53 (Ref:1719359)

Well we found the helmet 15 mtrs away from the car - but since we knew the driver still had a head, that was less of an issue!

I'll admit, it bothers me more than I expected. I mean, the guy will be ok in any case. But it was a particularly violent accident and the first time I've ever encountered this. The straps were definitely fastened when I checked the helmet, so I'm assuming that the fit wasn't quite right. I've always had the impression that the fit on OF was looser than that of the FF. Not sure why I have that mind you - I think it's just the look of them.

Dean Watson · 25 Sep 2006, 14:59 (Ref:1719364)

could the lining and padding inside the helmet have been crushed, giving more free space to move, therefore enough room to come off?

i can understand your concerns and worries i havent encountered this sort of incident. dealt with one or two biggies, one a couple of weeks ago in the sprint at cadwell.

EvilPumpkin · 25 Sep 2006, 15:01 (Ref:1719365)

I've dealt with a fair few biggies as well - ones where the drivers suffered worse injury as well.

I honestly don't know why this one is bothering me so much but the failure of such a vital piece of safety equipment, for whatever reason, just really disturbs me.

Suze · 25 Sep 2006, 15:05 (Ref:1719369)

That's understandable though....it is quite alarming. Is it being investigated as to why it came off?

EvilPumpkin · 25 Sep 2006, 15:08 (Ref:1719370)

I would assume so. MSA Stewards were out and photographed the scene before we were allowed to clear up. I'd already given the helmet to the doc, but we'd put a marker on the spot where the helmet was.

JimW · 25 Sep 2006, 15:10 (Ref:1719374)

If you have the driver's co-operation, why not ask him if he would mind being examined. I'd be very surprised if forcible removal of a helmet which has been at all done up did not leave plenty of marks. Perhaps a bit late now?

Also, ask him to put on a helmet of the same make without any prompting.

Then examine carefully and see what he has done.

(Not looking to blame anyone, just find causes - see air accident investigation rules and disclaimers.)

Regards

Jim

Suze · 25 Sep 2006, 15:17 (Ref:1719381)

Wasn't sure but likewise presumed.

Jim, I was wondering similar if the driver was marked at all. EP just to confirm - he will be ok?

Dave Brand · 25 Sep 2006, 15:20 (Ref:1719385)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimW

Named after a UK Minister of Transport at the time 'Zebra' crossings were introduced.

Close, but no cigar! Belisha beacons were introduced in 1934, Zebra crossings first appeared in 1949.

Dave Brand · 25 Sep 2006, 15:22 (Ref:1719386)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suze

Never seen the fit checked at scrutes

Bike scrutes do check helmet fit.

EvilPumpkin · 25 Sep 2006, 15:25 (Ref:1719389)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suze

Wasn't sure but likewise presumed.

Jim, I was wondering similar if the driver was marked at all. EP just to confirm - he will be ok?

As far as we know - very banged up and a couple of broken bones, but otherwise ok.

Suze · 25 Sep 2006, 15:56 (Ref:1719406)

Ok - certainly from what you've said, the banged up isn't too surprising.

Dave - interesting re bikes - do wonder why it's not therefore checked in car racing.

archaic gold · 25 Sep 2006, 15:57 (Ref:1719407)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Bike scrutes do check helmet fit.

This is very relevant!! Not quite in the same category, but we once had a customer passing the Start Line on a Race School, driving a single seater Van Diemen Audi, where the "chin" part of the helmet was nearly over his eyes. (He was Black flagged") My point is; was it his helmet?? Was it the right size??

The STIG · 25 Sep 2006, 17:33 (Ref:1719494)

The roof: that looks like it had a removable hard top in place anyway, so the force of the accident must have removed it - probably shouldn't have.

The helmet, new one on me - no one ever tells you what to do if a driver's helmet comes off of it's own accord.

Lord Summerisle · 25 Sep 2006, 17:45 (Ref:1719507)

hopefully we wont have to tell this chap to put his visor down again

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=217215

PVDA · 25 Sep 2006, 23:03 (Ref:1719802)

I've seen three helmets come off in crashes over the years

It was either caused by not doing them up properly in the first place or in one case putting on a "horse collar" style neck brace first and then the helmet.

Interestingly the horse collar one was in circuit racing (Phillip Island) where the other two were in speedway where horse collars were compulsary before HANS arrived.

Actually that's another bonus of the HANS device as it will keep the helmet in the car I s'pose.

I guess it would be easy enough to plonk the helmet on your head and get side tracked before you do up the strap or even before you get a chance to do it up properly.

jim69 · 26 Sep 2006, 06:43 (Ref:1719973)

I was always told when buying a helmet, that you do up the strap then put your chin down and see if the helmet can be pulled off from the back of your head. If it does not fit correctly there will be a lot of movement from the nape of the kneck up the back of the head.

JimW · 26 Sep 2006, 08:02 (Ref:1720029)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim69

I was always told when buying a helmet, that you do up the strap then put your chin down and see if the helmet can be pulled off from the back of your head. If it does not fit correctly there will be a lot of movement from the nape of the kneck up the back of the head.

Yes, that's the ACU style of test.

Regards

Jim

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