Brabham BT 15 F3 - advice needed

[Robert_R]

Hello,

being new to this forum, I would like to start with some questions. Currently there is a Brabham BT 15 F3 offered for sale in Sweden - see

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/d...id=26303&cat=3
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/d...id=24169&cat=3

From an advert on an Australian Brabham website I realized that the car has been for sale for several years. Now I wonder why it remained unsold for so long. I am really interested in buying the car, but before flying to Sweden for inspecting it, I would appreciate your opinion and advice regarding the most important points which I have to look at. Did I already mention that I have no real deep knowledge about historic single seater racing cars?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Best regards, Robert

[PeterMorley]

The problem with the 1,000 cc F3 cars is that there are not so many events you can do with them. Despite being so similar to Formula Juniors the lack of events keeps their prices down.

The single carb engines & 4 speed boxes probably makes them a bit harder to drive than a Junior - the power band will be pretty narrow and the limited number of gears will make it harder to keep in the power band.

It is also possible that the engines need more maintenance, they are high revving engines, and whenever I've seen the French F3 series a lot of people seem to have their engines in pieces over the weekend (have seen several checking crankshafts for example).

A Brabham BT15 should be a great car to drive - my twin-cam powered version (BT16?) was incredibly succesful - 4 different drivers won in it and its worst result was 2nd place!

For the money you are getting a lot of car, that will be easy to run & maintain (all we ever did on my Brabham was put petrol in it and clean it!).
And if the series becomes more popular you will have a car that increases in value.

Things to check are the obvious - condition of the suspension rose joints and other bearings (driveshaft joints etc), wheel bearings and so on.
What state is the cooling system in - if it has been left full of water with anti-freeze in it should be OK, at the worst the radiator might need some attention.
Brakes should just need freeing up (& discs cleaning) - you might want to replace the calliper seals and rebuild or replace the master cylinders since that is a cheap way to be sure about them.

None of these are particularly expensive but if you needed to do something like replace all the rose joints that soon adds up (using cheap rose joints is false economy).

Shock absorbers tend to be OK - if they are original Armstrongs they can be rebuilt, if they were replaced they should be OK and if not new Spax are great value for money.

Condition of the engine & gearbox - if it has sat for 5 years chances are they just need freshening, but if you need a new crank etc you could end up spending 5 grand rather than 1 grand on the engine.

You will need spare gears, so does it come with any spare ratios - what condition are they in (same with the ones in the box and the dog rings), again these aren't terribly expensive, a grands worth should be plenty.

The tyres, fire extinguisher and seat belts will all be out of date, so you need to allow another grand there.

So it looks like a nice car and I would think well worth looking at, but you won't get away with racing it without spending a bit on it.

[Robert_R]

Dear Peter,

thanks a lot for the immediate and detailed reply.

The lack of appropriate events is a fact, indeed. There is a series called "German open" over here in Germany, but the races feature all kind of single seater cars (excluding F2 and F1) up to 1982, and even sports prototypes up to 2000 cc up to 1986. So the main problem with a 1000 cc F3 car would probably be to get out of the way of the others.

Since I am new to the "racing scene", at least as an active participant, I was thinking to initially begin with some minor events like historic hillclimbs. But your remarks about the narrow power band and the limitation to 4 gears make me think twice about that now!

I do drive and maintain two classic sports cars (road cars, that is), but I am not such a sophisticated mechanic that I may overhaul the engine on a race weekend. And I cannot afford a professional mechanic to accompany me for a whole weekend as well. So what I definitely need would be a reliable, and rather easy to maintain car.

I understand about the parts which you recommeded to have checked. Especially the brakes would be on my list for a rebuild. I wonder if the suitable tires needed for this car are easily to get? The tires on the photos look like Dunlop Racing to me - are those still available?

Unfortunately the car comes without any spares:

No extra rims. I assume a second set of rims with rain tires would be obligatory for a race weekend?

No extra gear ratios. You said "You will need spare gears". Do you mean that I will need them to adjust the ratios to the various race tracks, or do you think the ones installed will wear quickly and have to be replaced?

Thanks again for your advice. It's great to get some information from someone with first-hand experience.

Regards, Robert

[phdm]

This car would run on treaded tyres not slicks, so spare wheels are not absolutely necessary.
However, the wheels being the original magnesium ones it would be a good idea to crack test them. Old magnesium does not age well.
Spare gears adapted to various circuits would be required to make the best use of the very narrow engine power band.
From pictures of the car received many years ago it looked very nice but it would however require a serious check over.
In my opinion this car is too expensive and this explains why it has not sold.
F3 screamers make a fantastic noise, but are not really competitive.
Frustration starts when you get beaten by Formula Fords. When I was driving my Merlyn FF in the German Open 10 years ago, 1 litre F3s were always behind. A Formula Ford would definitely be a better choice or drop a Lotus Twin Cam engine and a 5 speed Hewland box with LSD (you can convert the 4 speed box) and you would have a fantastic Formula B car. A lot better than a 1 litre F3.

[ianselva]

Dunlop treaded tyres are easily available - There is a truck at most larger meetings and the 1 litre F3 are allowed to run in a seperate class with the Formula Juniors at most races if its not oversubscibed. I think there is also a European F3 series. If you can get a bit more information about the supposed restoration it might help make up your mind . Len Selby can supply wheels and usually used Hewland ratios. Go for it !

[Robert_R]

Originally Posted by phdm

...
F3 screamers make a fantastic noise, but are not really competitive.
Frustration starts when you get beaten by Formula Fords. When I was driving my Merlyn FF in the German Open 10 years ago, 1 litre F3s were always behind. A Formula Ford would definitely be a better choice or drop a Lotus Twin Cam engine and a 5 speed Hewland box with LSD (you can convert the 4 speed box) and you would have a fantastic Formula B car. A lot better than a 1 litre F3.

Thank you for the additional input.

From all your opinions I am getting the impression that a post-1970 F3-car (or a FF, a Formula Junior or Formula B) may be the better choice for me, especially since I am thinking of doing some minor hillclimb events as well. It looks like the 1000 cc cars are rather difficult to drive, apart fom being less competitive.

Obviously a post-1973 2 litre Toyota engined F3 car would be less prone to engine wear due to the lower rev level, and easier to drive for a novice because of the wider power band nd the 5 speed gearbox.

To me the only real disadvantage of the later monocoque cars is the looks. I simply love the pure, slim, wingless looks of the early cars with the tubular frames.

So you see me pretty confused at the moment.

Converting the BT15 into Formula B sounds like a nice idea. But would it be easy to get a proper paperwork (FIA papers) for a car converted this way? I assume that some events would not accept a F3 car fitted with a larger engine and different gearbox, without the right documents.

[Robert_R]

Originally Posted by ianselva

Dunlop treaded tyres are easily available - There is a truck at most larger meetings ... Len Selby can supply wheels and usually used Hewland ratios.

So at least those parts wouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by ianselva

... If you can get a bit more information about the supposed restoration it might help make up your mind .... Go for it !

As I said, now I am feeling rather insecure if a F3 from the screamer era would be the right choice for me at all, because of the requested abilities of the driver (which I may be lacking) to keep the engine running in the narrow power band, and the sensitivity of the high revving engine.

[phdm]

With the FIA homologating replica cars, it shouldn't be difficult to obtain FIA papers for a BT15 in Formula B configuration. Some late sixties / early seventies references of similar cars could be found. The car may have to be reclassified in a later period though. Converting the car may be an expensive task but it would be quite nice and quick. Peter Morley will confirm that.
2 litre F3s are easier to drive but their restricted engines still have a rather narrow power band (4.5k to 6k).
The choice is yours really.
For your information, I am selling my 1969 Tecno F2 rolling chassis. The car could be run in winged or unwinged configuration, with slicks or treaded tyres and even with a Twin Cam as an FB. Contact me directly if you have any interest.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Robert_R

Thank you for the additional input.

From all your opinions I am getting the impression that a post-1970 F3-car (or a FF, a Formula Junior or Formula B) may be the better choice for me, especially since I am thinking of doing some minor hillclimb events as well. It looks like the 1000 cc cars are rather difficult to drive, apart fom being less competitive.

Obviously a post-1973 2 litre Toyota engined F3 car would be less prone to engine wear due to the lower rev level, and easier to drive for a novice because of the wider power band nd the 5 speed gearbox.

To me the only real disadvantage of the later monocoque cars is the looks. I simply love the pure, slim, wingless looks of the early cars with the tubular frames.

So you see me pretty confused at the moment.

Converting the BT15 into Formula B sounds like a nice idea. But would it be easy to get a proper paperwork (FIA papers) for a car converted this way? I assume that some events would not accept a F3 car fitted with a larger engine and different gearbox, without the right documents.

You don't need to go as modern as post 1970. Later cars start to become more complicated to race - you have wings (& suspension sometimes) to adjust, wet & dry tyres to carry around, and using the right gear ratios for the circuit tends to become more important.
There is also the possibility that some other drivers feel safer in a monocoque so they might worry less about having accidents.

Yes, I did mean different ratios to suit the circuit - on something like my twin-cam Brabham we never changed ratios and won on both high and low speed circuits. But that had an un-restricted engine and 5 speeds, something with a smaller power band will need alternative ratios for different circuits.

This Brabham fitted with a Lotus twin-cam engine and 5 speed Hewland (you could have the existing box converted) would be a great car - as Philippe said, mine was! - and there are more events you can do with it (better for the German Open, or classic single seaters in Britian and even hillclimbs).

Fitting a twin-cam engine would be pretty easy, it uses a similar engine block to the F3. But it would cost a fair bit - a good twin cam could easily be between 5 & 10k pounds, plus you need a different exhaust, you can also get a very nice engine cover for the twin-cam engine so the car looks even better than as an F3.

Another possibility would be to fit a Formuila Ford engine and keep the gearbox as it is, there were some Brabham based F.Fords at the time, that would be quite a cheap option and it would be faster and cheaper to run (engine costs are very low).

But both options mean you spend a lot and you could go out and buy something different for the money.

Getting paperwork is not a problem, nowadays all they are interested in is that the car is to original specification (which it would be - maybe not for this chassis but certainly for this chassis type, there were many built with twin-cams at the time).

Finding other 'cigar-shaped' cars is difficult the early Formula Fords can be pretty expensive and many of them already start to loose the pure shape. But you should get a reasonable one for around 15k pounds - and it will be easy to run and maintain.

Formula juniors are expensive, popular models like Lotus, Lola, Brabham are 30k pounds or more, but some of the obscure makes can be had a lot cheaper.

Something like a Formula Ford is easy to maintain - with any race car the engine and gearbox must be built by a specialist (with the engine you just do what he tells you - use the maximum revs but no more, and let him rebuild it at the right mileage).
Once the gearbox has been rebuilt and setup it will last a long time, you will easily learn how to change the gear ratios and that is all you will have to do to it.
With an early car (pre-70s rouighly) once the suspension has been sorted to something you are comfortable with (one advantage of buying a car that has already been raced - but there are plenty of people who can help you set it up), you shouldn't need to touch it - just keep an eye on it for wear and spray WD40 on rosejoints.
Then you just have to worry about tyre pressures at the circuit and keep an eye on all the fluids etc.

A FFord or Junior would be a perfect starting place - that is what they were when they first started and they still are, and with something like a junior you can race pretty much every weekend!

Look at FormulaJunior.com and see what is for sale - preferably Ford engined (I did have a DKW engined junior but that caused a few headaches!!) - there is an Envoy for sale in Germany for the same price as this Brabham, that should be worth looking at.......

[Robert_R]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

You don't need to go as modern as post 1970. Later cars start to become more complicated to race - you have wings (& suspension sometimes) to adjust, wet & dry tyres to carry around, and using the right gear ratios for the circuit tends to become more important.
There is also the possibility that some other drivers feel safer in a monocoque so they might worry less about having accidents.

O.k., all this even enforces my liking for the earlier cars.

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

This Brabham fitted with a Lotus twin-cam engine and 5 speed Hewland (you could have the existing box converted) would be a great car - as Philippe said, mine was! - and there are more events you can do with it (better for the German Open, or classic single seaters in Britian and even hillclimbs).

I had a look at the German Open regulations (HRA), but I didn't find any mentioning of F B cars being allowed to run.

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Fitting a twin-cam engine would be pretty easy, it uses a similar engine block to the F3. But it would cost a fair bit - a good twin cam could easily be between 5 & 10k pounds, plus you need a different exhaust, you can also get a very nice engine cover for the twin-cam engine so the car looks even better than as an F3.

At the first sight the Formula B conversion sounds like a good very idea. But a nice Twin Cam engine would cost me up to 10000 pounds. A 5-speed gearbox would be another 5000 (if I choose to keep the old 4-speed box untouched for a possible future re-build back to original F3 specification). There would also be a good chance that those parts need an overhaul, before being installed. Add a new exhaust, and carbs, in case they don't come with the engine. In addition, the engine and gearbox have to be installed by a knowing mechanic - keep in mind that I don't have any connections and don't know the right people (yet). So in the end this could result in an endless drain of my limited resources, and the car might be ready to run in 2007. Don't you think so?

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Finding other 'cigar-shaped' cars is difficult the early Formula Fords can be pretty expensive and many of them already start to loose the pure shape. But you should get a reasonable one for around 15k pounds - and it will be easy to run and maintain.

Following this advice I have looked around a bit. The only car I found which 'pleases my eye' is the Merlyn Mk 11. There are currently some for sale:

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/d...id=33538&cat=9
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/d...id=34729&cat=9
http://www.hra-online.de/ForSale.htm (at the bottom of the page)

But I still have to say that the shape of the Brabham BT15 looks more elegant and pure to me! You will probably be shaking your head right now. I know that the looks of a racing car should not be the most important thing to consider. Maybe it has something to do with my profession as a grafic designer - I could even imagine having such a car in my living room, as a kind of sculpture. Unfortunately my wife doesn't agree with that point of view...

Seriously, I should have a look at the last of the mentioned Merlyn's. It is located in Austria, which will not be too far away from where I live, in Nuremberg/Southern Germany. I agree that from a pragmatic point of view, a FF would be the most sensible solution.

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Formula juniors are expensive, popular models like Lotus, Lola, Brabham are 30k pounds or more, but some of the obscure makes can be had a lot cheaper.

In fact I wonder why the Juniors are that expensive, if not for the superior number of F Junior events? Where is the real difference between the F Junior and the F3. Don't they both use small capacity engines and 4-speed gearboxes? Why is a F3 car so much more difficult to drive and maintain?

Finally, let me thank all of you once more for taking your time to help me. It is much appreciated.

[ianselva]

In fact most of the Juniors now run engines very much on a par with 1000cc screamers and I don't think you would have that much trouble keeping it maintained for a limited number of races per season . It would then work out as a relatively cheap seasons racing at that price and you could afford the engine rebuild at the end of the season. Also As 1000cc F3 get more races the prices will rise and you'll get a return on your money. Email Duncan Rabagliati about running with the Juniors both in the UK and in Europe.

[Robert_R]

Hi Ian, so you don't think the Junior and the F3 screamer would be a lot different to drive?

During a quick search I have found the following address for Duncan Rabagliati: 4 Wool Road, Wimbledon, London SW20 0HW. Tel: 0181 946 1730. Fax:0181 946 2367.

Would you happen to have an e-mail contact for him? Or is he a member of this forum - could send him a private message then. Thanks!

[Robert_R]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Another possibility would be to fit a Formuila Ford engine and keep the gearbox as it is, there were some Brabham based F.Fords at the time, that would be quite a cheap option and it would be faster and cheaper to run (engine costs are very low).

I have just received a copy of the FIA paperwork of the Brabham. It states that the car indeed has been raced as a FF in Sweden from 1972 onwards!

Any ideas what a revised FF engine would roughly cost, incl. carb, exhaust etc.?

[ianselva]

Hi Robert
I don't think it would be that much more difficult and you would be out with cars of similar performance . An F3 car is probably harder to drive on the absolute limit in order to win but not to just compete. Presumably you are still a novice driver so I would say it's better to be out there getting experience than spending a lot of money to be out next year or later in a maybe more competitive class. I have a friend who competes with a F3 in the juniors as his is an early F3 and not competitive in European F3, but has no problems with the car being more difficult to drive.

Duncans email is :
rabagliati@blueyonder.co.uk

[Robert_R]

Hi Ian,
you're right, maybe I should not be threatened off too easily. Of course I wouldn't be able to drive a F3 car the limit, but probably I won't be able to drive ANY car at the absolute limit. My only concern is that a torquier engine with a less narrow power band may make life easier for me, so that I can concentrate more on staying on the track than on keeping the revs between 8 and 10.

With the thought in mind that it theoretically would be possible to convert it into a FF, maybe I will have a look at the BT15 within the next few weeks. It surely depends on how the car looks like in the flesh.

[phdm]

Note that, in order to convert the car to FF spec, you would need :
- a legal FF engine
- an exhaust and silencer
- engine mounts
- 4 cast iron callipers (instead of the Griling aluminium ones)
- 4 5.5" x 13" steel wheels and legal FF tyres.
Whatever you do, this is going to cost money and it would not make any economic sense to build a Formula Ford out of this car, given its asking price.
Remember you can get a restored Historic Formula Ford for £ 10k to 15k (€ 15k to 22k).
You don't necessarily need to buy a Merlyn which admittedly is a highly desirable car, fast and easy to drive. You can consider other cars such as Elden, Palliser (Brabham inspired), Jamun, Macon, Nike (Brabham inspired) or even Vaney (Tecno inspired).
You don't necessarily need to buy a pre-72 car which tend to attract higher prices than later cars especially in the UK due to the highly popular HSCC Historic FF championship.
You could pick up a later car (1972 to 1976 for example) car for sensible money which would be a good buy for the German Open, CFFC or the French series.

[PeterMorley]

You are right that Formula Junior engines are very similar to F3, but they can be a lot more expensive.
A top Formula Junior engine can cost well over 10,000 pounds!
That in itself accounts for a large part of the price difference, and the 5 speed box is a bit more expensive (you should be able to get one for 3,500 pounds).

But the Junior is a lot easier to drive - the single air inlet for an F3 engine really does restrict the airflow and the revs, a Ford junior engine uses 4 inlets and has a much wider power band.

You also have 5 speeds in a junior which gives you a bit more choice of which to use!

Given the F3 & FFord gearboxes are the same you could convert the Brabham to FFord by 'just' changing the engine - a FF engine should be under 2000 pounds.

But I think you will also need to change the wheels - FF should use a standard steel road wheel. Plus the other bits that have been monetioned.

I think you should investigate the Envoy junior that is for sale in Germany, it could be quite a nice car.

[JFW]

Hi Robert.

I have now sold my FF [ as listed above] so you cannot have that one. The German open is a great championship and a load of fun.

I own all of the cars you are interested in, including an HFF a Junior and an F3. So I may be able to advise you impartially.

Its a good idea to decide in advance what you want to do with it first and proceed from there. A competant amateur mechanic can run most of the different types. with a little guidance.

Im the HFF chairman so obviously that is the best championship to start from

cheers


Jason

[Robert_R]

Originally Posted by phdm

Note that, in order to convert the car to FF spec, you would need :
- a legal FF engine
- an exhaust and silencer
- engine mounts
- 4 cast iron callipers (instead of the Griling aluminium ones)
- 4 5.5" x 13" steel wheels and legal FF tyres.
Whatever you do, this is going to cost money and it would not make any economic sense to build a Formula Ford out of this car, given its asking price.
Remember you can get a restored Historic Formula Ford for £ 10k to 15k (€ 15k to 22k).
You don't necessarily need to buy a Merlyn which admittedly is a highly desirable car, fast and easy to drive. You can consider other cars such as Elden, Palliser (Brabham inspired), Jamun, Macon, Nike (Brabham inspired) or even Vaney (Tecno inspired).
You could pick up a later car (1972 to 1976 for example) car for sensible money which would be a good buy for the German Open, CFFC or the French series.

It seems clear that FF would be the ideal class to start with single seater racing. And I also agree that buying a complete or ready car will always be cheaper than to convert something else, with an unknown amount of work/time/money until the conversion will be finished. Not to mention the time it will take to find the required parts.

On the other hand, searching for a FF car which also fits my idea of a "good looking" race car, is not an easy task. At least on the internet I found very few. Most of the later cars are very "boxy" designed, with lots of sharp edges, others cannot be called anything else but ugly.

In the meantime I have found another Merlyn for sale, not a Mk11, but a Mk24. The car seems to be currently located in Denmark. The old advert (when the car was in Sweden) on race-cars.com can be found here:
http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/mer...1/m24x01ss.htm

It seems that it may take some more time to find the right car... in the meantime I am trying to extract as much information as possible from all the helpful posts on this forum.

[JFW]

Hi Robert,

do not buy a Merlyn Mk24 unless you are sure you do not want to do true historic racing. I would think it does not look enough like the type of racing car you want to own.

Did you think any further about what type of racing you wanted to do and what budget you have.

Beyond anything else ite the money that will determine the route for you.


It costs around £ 500 per hour to race FF and probably double that to run a junior.

Think about it hard before you proceed and I will make a few suggestions.

J

[Robert_R]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

I think you should investigate the Envoy junior that is for sale in Germany, it could be quite a nice car.

Peter, I already tried to contact the Envoy owner, but have not reached him yet. At least his wife told me that the car is still unsold, so let's wait and see.

To sum it up, it looks like:

- without question the most economic and sensible choice would be a race-ready F Ford

- the most expensive, but "historical correct" choice with better driveability compared to F3 and more events to choose from would be a F Junior

- in between would be the F3 (more difficult to drive, higher maintenance cost and prone to engine wear - but not as expensive priced as the F Junior)

Hmmmmmm...

[JFW]

And as they say in the game shows,



THE DECISION IS YOURS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



J


frankly if you have no race experience the learning curve with F3 is too steep for a novice. The easiest is HFF then FJ, remember if you miss a gear when the engine is doing 7500 rpm its ok

when its doing 10,500, - BANG


J

[Robert_R]

Originally Posted by JFW

Hi Robert,
Did you think any further about what type of racing you wanted to do and what budget you have.
Beyond anything else ite the money that will determine the route for you.

It costs around £ 500 per hour to race FF and probably double that to run a junior.
Think about it hard before you proceed and I will make a few suggestions.

J

Hi Jason, thank you for dropping in on this topic.

In fact the money is a main factor to have in mind. I am not rich and I have to work hard for the money in my little grafic design business. In addition, exactly this afternoon I had an appointment with my tax consultant, who just completed the tax return for 2004. Unfortunately he surprised me with the news that I have to pay a back tax next month, which would have allowed me to buy three Merlyn Mk 11's. That really hurts and also has calmed down my current enthusiasm to buy a race car in some way.

You asked about my initial plans what to do with the car, which may sound a bit naive:
For the beginning (i.e. this year) I had in mind to get the car sorted out, do some track days with it, only to get to know it and to get used to it. No actual races, or even competing in a complete series. Plus a kind of racing/driving school. Then maybe do some historic meetings or historic hillclimbs over here in southern Germany.

Only after seeing if I am happy with the car and with my driving, I would consider participating in real races, but not earlier than next year.

As I mentioned before, I regard those cars not only as a tool for fast driving - I also love the body lines, the pure shape, and I could imagine having one in my living room as a kind of sculpture as well. Don't get me wrong, I WANT to drive the car, but I am certainly not the kind of determined racer, who wants to win some championship. Maybe this will develop with the competition...

Of course for this limited kind of driving, it would be much more economic to rent a car incl. service for a few times, to figure out if racing is the right thing for me at all. But I think that I would also enjoy the simpe ownership of such a beautiful race car, even without using it each weekend.

Does that sound blue-eyed? Probably.

[JFW]

HI ROBERT,

Sounds like a fair assesment to me.

First decide if you are a racer or a polisher. [I am a polisher]

Then what your budget is [I am a pauper]

What type of people I like to mingle with a lot.

Then by a Merlyn Mk 11

Thats what I did

J

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Robert_R

Peter, I already tried to contact the Envoy owner, but have not reached him yet. At least his wife told me that the car is still unsold, so let's wait and see.

To sum it up, it looks like:

- without question the most economic and sensible choice would be a race-ready F Ford

- the most expensive, but "historical correct" choice with better driveability compared to F3 and more events to choose from would be a F Junior

- in between would be the F3 (more difficult to drive, higher maintenance cost and prone to engine wear - but not as expensive priced as the F Junior)

Hmmmmmm...

See what the Envoy man has to say when you get hold of him.

I think you will find there is not so much difference in running costs between the FFord and FJunior.

The Junior engine might need rebuilding more often (because it does higher revs), but the parts to rebuild it aren't so expensive (what is expensive is building the engine in the first place - modifying the cylinder head, steel crank & rods etc), normal wear and tear items aren't expensive, it is only the major components that are (and they should not need replacing).

As long as you don't do anything silly (run out of oil for example!) the parts like steel crankshaft etc will last a very long time - they are better components than the road ones used in FFord.

The gearbox will cost virtually the same - since it is near enough the same.

Brakes, tyres etc are similar (junior brake pads should last longer - they are proper racing components not from a road car).

Another advantage of Junior is that there is a far greater variation in the performance of the cars - from the beginning to the end of junior cars evolved a great deal (from front engine to rear engine & monocoque). Most early FFords are very similar (they have to use a lot of the same components for a start), and their performance has far more to do with the driver than the car.

So when it comes to racing, if you have an obscure Junior then if you don't do so well it is the car's fault and if it goes well the driver is fantastic! The FFords tend to be more competitive!

Also Juniors are more valuable - and keep their value better than an FF, plus you can go to more upmarket events (Goodwood, Monaco etc all have races for Juniors) - that also increases their value.
If you have an unusual Junior it is easier to get entries at the top events.

I hope the FF people don't take offence at these suggestions, but I think they are fair - and the price difference between the two formulae would suggest that others see it this way as well - I'm certainly not trying to put down the FFs, they are great and have some of the most exciting races in historic racing.

But I think if you can find/afford one you will be better off with a Junior in the long run.

Another factor is how many races you will do, if you are going to do 10's of races a year then running costs could become significant, if you are only going to do a few then it won't make so much difference (the costs of entering, reaching and staying at the events will be the same).

If your tax bill is that high I don't think you will have a problem running this type of historic car (especially if you have some practical skills and commonsense), the one year I had to pay taxes (my company always looses money - unfortunately!) it would hardly have paid for an un-restored FF!

You might even find that you could deduct some of the costs as publicity, so it could help lower the bill!!