The one and only official 10/10ths BOP thread

[Great Dane]

Porsche drops 10kgs

Ferrari and Corvette gains 15Kgs

[gwyllion]

Where? When? Which topic did you mean to post this in?

[Pandamasque]

This is even better than the persistent 'Vulcan' ads in the DeltaWing thread.

[Spyderman]

[joeb]

I just found this old old thread and thought I'd resurrect it. The ACO is debuting a new automatic BOP system this season - all done by computer so that the politics are taken out of it:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...s-of-auto-bop/

It doesn't apply to Le Mans, and they won't touch anything until after the first 2 races, so it will be a while before we see how this works.

[OmerRS]

Latest BOP table updates;

WEC:
http://www.fia.com/events/world-endu...ance-committee

IMSA:
http://competitors.imsa.com/102016/2...ical-bulletins

[TzeiTzei]

BoP = garbage. Unfortunately in many series it seems to be the only option.

[WolfsburgRS]

Entirely set by a computer program eh? Time to put hackers on the payroll.

Found this pic of the new head of ACO BOP

[TF110]

I don't know why the Ford is lighter than the Ferrari.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by joeb

all done by computer so that the politics are taken out of it

Quote from that article...

a mathematical algorithm will automatically set the adjustments for the next race

Politics can still creep back in. Humans create the algorithm and the BoP algorithm itself will likely be "balanced" over time as issues with it's design (nothing is perfect) is inevitably exposed. But... I think this is absolutely the right thing to do.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

IMO the absolutely right thing to do is stop using BOP for a development class.

I don't see how this will really change anything, other than possibly tie the organisers hands behind their back at times. The algorithm won't be perfect and will still have human elements involved. It could possibly be abused as well - Ford could run around at half speed in a way the computer calculates as legit, gives it a boost and then it magically ends up miles ahead. Which is exactly what happened last year.

I don't see this solving anything, and it's open to abuse. BOP is great...for GT3 cars. But GTE is a development class, and BOP goes against that.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It could possibly be abused as well - Ford could run around at half speed in a way the computer calculates as legit, gives it a boost and then it magically ends up miles ahead. Which is exactly what happened last year.

I don't follow GTE as much as I used to, so I am out of the loop. I looked at the GTE technical regulations to see what sensors are mandated. As best as I can tell, it looks like stuff like intake, boost, restrictor throat and manifold pressures, lambda probe and various temp sensors. No mention of something like a torque sensor on the engine.

That doesn't sound like enough to really expose true performance in an objective way. I believe on the LMP1 cars they are required to provide a slew of values. Fuel pressure, fuel flow, boost pressure, various temps and most importantly... engine torque!

I suspect that with what is currently required for GTE, they can still hide performance if they want. While it is much harder to do with LMP1 because those cars are effectively on a dyno all the time. So the organizers know the true performance. Showing your hand when previously hidden just provides objective numbers as to how much you were previously sandbagging. I think on the LMP1 side, that can result in penalties (such as any cheating/sandbagging on the stated efficiency of your engine... BSFC)

It may be an unpopular opinion (due to cost), but I think they need to measure more on the GTE cars if they want to really get BoP correct. Hopefully they use more than just lap times and trap speed values!

Richard

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by joeb

I just found this old old thread and thought I'd resurrect it.

Top idea.

The ACO is debuting a new automatic BOP system this season - all done by computer so that the politics are taken out of it:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...s-of-auto-bop/

It doesn't apply to Le Mans, and they won't touch anything until after the first 2 races, so it will be a while before we see how this works.

I can see what they are trying to address here. I wonder if the computer code will be shared?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

That doesn't sound like enough to really expose true performance in an objective way. I believe on the LMP1 cars they are required to provide a slew of values. Fuel pressure, fuel flow, boost pressure, various temps and most importantly... engine torque!

I think your evaluation of the situation is correct, as evidenced by Ford last year. They ran with a trail of sand at Spa to the point where it was embarrassing watching the car short shifting up kemmel and getting absolutely no where near the rev limit. Then a late race yellow and a technical issue for a Ferrari meant they could sniff a win (despite the sand) and suddenly the car found a bag of pace. Despite the obvious sand bagging, they were given a BOP break for Le Mans, and they ran off into the distance miles faster than what they should've been able to do.

The ACO is not collecting enough data about the GTE cars performance to effectively BOP them without reasonable assurance that they are not being manipulated by dodgy practices. I don't see the downside of your suggestion of monitoring the GTE cars more closely. If they insist on going down the BOP route, then that is what they should be doing - otherwise they aren't doing the job effectively.

Funny you should mention a torque sensor. That was the plan the ACO put in place, was to have this mandated on all cars. That's the reason Porsche have given for them developing a brand new NA car, whilst everybody else went turbo. The ACO never did go down the torque sensor route and the result is Porsche regretting not using a turbo motor in the new GTE car.

In LMP1, you're right again. Porsche was penalised several times mid race for using too much fuel. They know exactly what is going on with the LMP1s, and as a result it's very rare we see an adjustment to the EoT. Unlike the BOP, which is adjusted so much that it's clearly a reaction to the race results rather than balancing of cars. Not that you should be balancing the GTE cars IMO, as it's meant to be a manufacturer backed development class.

[fieldodreams79]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHozn0YXAeE

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Funny you should mention a torque sensor. That was the plan the ACO put in place, was to have this mandated on all cars. That's the reason Porsche have given for them developing a brand new NA car, whilst everybody else went turbo. The ACO never did go down the torque sensor route and the result is Porsche regretting not using a turbo motor in the new GTE car.

I don't know the history of why they didn't require torque sensors in GTE in the recent past. It may have been cost, it may have been that with what we have now (performance measurements that are far removed from atomic, foundational and objectively measurable components plus... flawed restriction methods such as sonic air restrictors) manufactures think they can (and do) game the system to their advantage. Everyone likes loopholes to exist because they always think they can play the politics game better than the next guy.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Not that you should be balancing the GTE cars IMO, as it's meant to be a manufacturer backed development class.

It's clearly an opinion thing. I don't know what the answer is (i.e. BoP or something else).

I think the problem is that if you base the cars upon production machines, that if a manufacturer wants to win, they will build a purpose built road car to match whatever the ideal technical solution would be for the technical regulations. Maybe the Ford GT is an example of that. Then what happens when everyone gravitates toward the same solution? It may look like what is happening today... slow migration to mid-engine turbo cars. It just becomes a somewhat spec series with the winner being whoever wants to spend the most money and can play the political game the best. Plus, not a lot of real diversity in the type and style in the cars other than livery and the manufacture badges on the cars. They might as well be another class of prototypes!

Richard

[carbsmith]

The torque sensors were supposed to outright replace air restrictors, which would basically leave us with the sanctioning body controlling the performance of the engine directly. That fits with the (often forgotten) intent of GT3 to have heavily production based spec cars running together but it's not something the manufacturers were ever going to accept in GTE even with the homologated engines and constant restrictor tweaks to try to neutralize any performance improvements.

Homologation specials tend to be a failing of the homologation requirements. There's no way an ultra limited production hypercar like the Ford GT should be racing 911s and Corvettes to start with but somehow it's supposed to be a great idea because BoP will fix it. (just like it fixed the MC12 to 5 straight FIA GT championships)

[chernaudi]

Unfortunately, air restrictors are probably here to stay in GTE unless they go to a fuel flow restrictor to limit power, which I fear that will open it's own can of worms. Torque sensors will cost just as much probably, and they don't limit top end power, just low end torque.

[MaskedRacer]

I think LeBron James needs a ballast on his ankle and a air restrictor to tire him out quicker. You know to help balance the Cavs performance with the Brooklyn Nets. BoP right!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Unfortunately, air restrictors are probably here to stay in GTE unless they go to a fuel flow restrictor to limit power, which I fear that will open it's own can of worms. Torque sensors will cost just as much probably, and they don't limit top end power, just low end torque.

The torque sensor is only to monitor reality. It does nothing by itself to limit performance. So they should (in conjunction with other data) document the entire performance envelope of the engine.

I feel I am coming across too negative about all of this. I think the more scientific approach is right and even if they are not measuring the right things now, maybe they will in the future. It's hard to solve all problems at the same time.

Richard

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

I think LeBron James needs a ballast on his ankle and a air restrictor to tire him out quicker. You know to help balance the Cavs performance with the Brooklyn Nets. BoP right!

LeBron has been BoPed before and possibly now. It's called "Cleveland".

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

The torque sensor is only to monitor reality. It does nothing by itself to limit performance. So they should (in conjunction with other data) document the entire performance envelope of the engine.

I feel I am coming across too negative about all of this. I think the more scientific approach is right and even if they are not measuring the right things now, maybe they will in the future. It's hard to solve all problems at the same time.

Richard

And yes, if there's going to be BOP, a series should use all data it can get to reach their conclusions. The more data to consider, the more complete the picture, hopefully the more accurate the results.

However, if you want to see negativity, read my posts in the "Getting Tired of Racing" thread. Granted, back in some of those days I yearn for, BOP wasn't no where near as big a deal as it is now. Sadly, a combination of things drive modern BOP, including costs, teams wanting results fast, limiting speeds between classes, etc.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't see this solving anything, and it's open to abuse. BOP is great...for GT3 cars. But GTE is a development class, and BOP goes against that.

Since when is GTE a development class? It's the exact opposite. They only get a lemans aero and a non lemans aero package that they must use for the rest of the season. The end game for GTE is one where teams win based on strategy, pit stop speed and a bit of luck. ACO want all of the GTE cars to run the same ultimate lap time at every track if that was easy to achieve. I'm not against that, because that's the only thing you can do for GTE to remain sustainable considering it's not the class for the overall victory.


What you're hinting at and what we'd all like to see with GTE isn't actually sustainable nor worth it if they aren't racing for overall victory which is why it won't happen.

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

LeBron has been BoPed before and possibly now. It's called "Cleveland".

Perhaps the biggest BoP was letting him and two other superstars form a mega team in Miami, but the league didn't allow Chris Paul to join the Lakers....such BS!!!

[TF110]

The lmp1 eot is basically based on the best in class. Should do that in gte. If the Ferrari is the most efficient in fuel, bop up the others up in tank size to compensate.

They need to be careful because you don't really want them to go to the other areas like the equalizing wing angles and gurneys etc. That's my gripe with the imsa prototype bop. Every car has to be equalized if it's going to be a bop class. But where do you draw the line?