Kerb hopping and corner cutting, I'm confused!

[Al Weyman]

Ok at a recent drivers meeting at Brands Hatch we were told catagourically that Mr. Palmer was very proud of his nicely painted kerbs and corners and as such persistant corner cutting would result in being shown the black flag and in for an early shower. Also being a bit old school I always assumed one stays on the black stuff anyhow. However every televised event I watch in particular Touring cars invariably they are not two wheels on the kurbs but in many cases the entire car has cut the corner!

So what exactly is going on here, is it one rule for the likes of Touring cars and F1 and another for us or is it Ok to participate in this practice despite risking marking Mr. Palmers nicely painted kerbs as I am more than a little confused on this issue and it is something that has had me thinking about for some time.

Funny how the biker boys manage without this kerb hopping nonscense, I wonder why :-).

[silver bullet]

The last time we were there (Rallycross) any body who put any wheels on the grass were excluded from the race. We turn right, onto the loose at paddock and it's a very tight turn almost every race someone was excluded.
Maybe If we had had TV coverage it might have been different.
Do the trucks still race at Brands, they would be able to turn Mr P's lawn into a vegatable patch

[Keith Wheeler]

'Is it one rule for the likes of Touring cars and F1 and another for us'

Short answer - yes

Most of the rules that relate to track conduct don't seem to apply to Touring cars.
It's all down to making the racing a good 'show' for the TV and trackside audience. Double standards? - of course!!

[kipper]

Originally Posted by silver bullet

Do the trucks still race at Brands, they would be able to turn Mr P's lawn into a vegatable patch

The trucks do race at Brands - in November.

[Al Weyman]

So what is the situation then, the next time I race do I just ignore the rules and just go for it straight over the kerbs or what?

[Eddy V]

In my opinion Al: stay on the black stuff. Maybe the ones who use kerbs aren't fast enough.

[Al Weyman]

I have spoke to and read articles of guys setting their suspensions up so they ride the kerbs better so what is going down here?

[Eddy V]

I guess the modern racing drivers thinks he must use the kerbs, were as we oldtimers never had kerbs to hop.
If you put kerbs down they'll use it, if you put extra stuff behind the kerbs they'll use that as well.

But Mr Palmer does not like that, however it is not forbidden to use the kerbs. Maybe he has the power to impose penalties when stepping on his precious grass and kerbs.

[graham bahr]

i must admit when i first saw the signs about kerbs i thought it out of order, as i make plenty of use of them particulary at surtees (indy circuit only) but after driving the circuit again i cant see why anyone would want to use more than the kerbs, doing so risks dirty tyres not to mention wheel tyre and suspension damage.

so i havn't got an issue with it UNLESS your going to be black flagged for the occassional trip across the grass when you've got it wrong.

[Simon Mason]

Using apex curbs mean you cover less distance around the corner than you would have, using an exit curb means you can exit at a higher speed.

To be fast in any competitive race series you have to use the curbs. Its just not negotiable and of course no way are you going to tell a driver who has an ego and position to protect with a manufacturer or big budget team that he can't use a known advantage. After all where would the line be drawn between advantage and safety.

Now Palmers issue is based on the belief that not so much money and PR is at stake outside the big manufacturer backed series and therefore the drivers should be scared off using curbs. The fact is they do black flag people for going onto the grass but not so much the curbs, but like all things in competitive motorsport it comes down to picking your moments ;-).

The other issue is indeed some cars are slower over curbs than others. Most commonly used dampers in club motorsport are not good enough to absorb the fast bump and rebound action of a curb so its really only cars with the trick dampers that can fully exploit them at certain corners specially round Brands where the curbs are generally a bit high.

As an example I was lucky enough to back to back a cheap set of race dampers with an VERY expensive set at Snetterton last year in FWD car and the difference was just over 2 seconds a lap before started playing with the settings. The top stuff goes over curbs like they are gentle bumps where the conventional ones treat the same curbs like they were ramps or a cobbled road.

[archaic gold]

Kerbs can be painted overnight - grass can take weeks to grow!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

so i havn't got an issue with it UNLESS your going to be black flagged for the occassional trip across the grass when you've got it wrong.

You don't get black flagged for the occasional mistake, not at Brands anyway. I decided Surtees was not for me a few weeks ago and rejoined from Cooper straight midway round Clearways and it wasn't even reported - my mate was marshaling on that post though - he did say they would only report it if it was blatant corner cutting not a lack of talent.

[youngoldy]

This is a big problem that Anglesey Circuit are having, especially with the Formula Fords. Up at Radar, drivers are 'straight lining' the exit, so they run the on the grass which has now turned to dirt. But there is a little kink to the right on the exit, which is where the drivers are cutting the corner, and the speed they gain down the back stright is huge to those who don't cut the corner, and can easily pass someone down to the hairpin.
The same thing is happenignd down at Douglas or Mountainview, which ever is the nearest the finish line, where they just pop the right hand side wheels over the big enough kerbs anyway, and onto the dirt, and this again gains you speed down the pit straight and help you pass into perhaps the only possible place on the circuit.

At Oulton Park, they class corner cutting as all four wheel leaving the track. Why they dont say the wheels that take to the kerbs going onto the grass I don't know why.

[archaic gold]

At a Club Meeting a couple of years ago at Brands Hatch, pre JP, the plastic matting started to break up at the exit of Graham Hill where cars consistently ran wide. With the agreement of the MSA Steward, five cones were place along the curbing. Drivers were informed that if anybody knocked a cone down, they would be given a time penalty on their race time. Only one was knocked down by a tail-end drift on the last one, and the driver was not penalised.
So, it begs the question, why do drivers insist on running over the curbs?? Especially as one of the learned contributors to this thread has stated it can add a second or two to one's lap time.

[Woolley]

Something we've discussed over a period of time. F1 insist the walls are moved back, then add kerbs you can drive over and green painted concrete beyond that, bringing the cars badk to the same distance from the walls, but travelling much faster. For the WTCC yesterday the one chicane was a joke, with the cars' outside wheels several feet inside the kerbs, never mind the inside ones. Personally I'd either take out kerbs altogether (keep to the grey bits) or where corner cutting is an issue, put in kerbs that everyone would prefer not to drive over. As usual, this seems to go ffrom F1 and BTCC setting low standards - they've even got kerbs and run-offs at Monaco now - and everyone else following suit.

[graham bahr]

i'm with you there woolley, drivers will use as much track/kerb/concrete/matting as they can, if extra concrete or kerbs weren't added which a driver couldn't take advantage of then they would have to stick to the black stuff.

the kerbs at croix start fairly gentle so clipping them is ok but they very quickly get very steep as you move further in so nobody in ther right mind would take a huge chunk of them deliberatly

[Mark Mitchell]

The rules........
Kerbs are considered to be a part of the course...anything beyond them is not and may be considered by the CoC as "Leaving The Circuit" and thus liable to a B/W flag.

It has also been proved by official time sheets that those competitors who persist in "Corner Cutting" actually have a slower lap time than those who are able to compete within the confines of the marked track!

[archaic gold]

Exactly, the point I was making earlier; so why do Competitors persist in doing it??? There is also a danger of damage to spoilers and dams on the front of the car. In an earlier post, the point was made that at Croix en Tournois, the curbs get sharper the further away from the tarmac, which is probably why some of the cars had damage to these items of body trim.

[Dean Watson]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

so i havn't got an issue with it UNLESS your going to be black flagged for the occassional trip across the grass when you've got it wrong.

as a flag marshall and occasional observer my interpretation is :- once is ignorable, twice is pushing it and thrice is extracting the urine and a report will be made marshalls will not generaly make reports for the odd "mis-judgement" but deliberate and constant clipping/corner-cutting for advantage will be reported

[Robin_D]

Do you reckon they should put the gravel back in at Copse?

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

It has also been proved by official time sheets that those competitors who persist in "Corner Cutting" actually have a slower lap time than those who are able to compete within the confines of the marked track!

i suppose it all depends on the car and the circuit and the corners concerned

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

Do you reckon they should put the gravel back in at Copse?

no i cant see a reason to

[Robin_D]

It's really not as much of a challenge as it was and the amount of people running wide is rediculous.

[graham bahr]

im in favour of gravel traps if they keep cars out of the armaco, but they can be a heafty price to pay for a minor off which was never in danger of hitting something solid, so generally i would rather see plenty of run off with gravel only in the area of something solid

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

im in favour of gravel traps if they keep cars out of the armaco, but they can be a heafty price to pay for a minor off which was never in danger of hitting something solid, so generally i would rather see plenty of run off with gravel only in the area of something solid

You only have to look at the number of cars that roll at Paddock (Brands) after digging into the gravel after a minor sideways moment to see that gravel traps aren't always the best idea. If JP is in favour of penalising those who use areas outside of the track, then perhaps he could bring some run-off back at that corner and give some margin for error before ending up with a pebble-dashed roof?
Big accidents straight on into the armco there are pretty rare, and the gravel doesn't appear to do much to slow down those unfortunates.

Although last year the BTCC boys were even managing to stick two wheels right over the kerb and into the gravel, every lap, and getting away with it.