Castle Combe yellow flags and safety cars

[gixxer]

Can someone please tell me what the hell's going on wilst i never like to criticise the work that you Marshalls do today at quarry was down right appaling the main points being..

1, The use of the yellow flag on at least 5 occasions where the person who was using it seem not to have any idea how to use it when a waved yellow on the exit of quarry was displayed the same was being waved on the post next to the traffic light which should have been stationary,even though one observer did come across and tell the person.But once the marshalls moved around the same happend at avon rise surley if there's a newby they must watched and kept an eye as a lot of the time nobody seemed to know what to do.

2 use of safety cars

Why oh why after every car that went off at quarry into the wall was there a need for the safety car to be depolyed when at least three times the cars were not in any position of danger the chap who was seemingly constantly on the phone panicing about cars that had gone off we might as well have had gravel traps,never in the 37 years of spectating at combe have i seen so much flapping done by an obsever usually unless the cars are in a direct line like the vx220 then they are always left and deemed out of the way.

Very Very Frustrated by needless hold ups at some points of the meeting!!!!!!!

I'm sorry to be blunt but a number of us sat at Quarry today just could not understand why a saftey car was needed when it never has been used for the same incidents in the past!!

[PieMan]

Gixxer, I wasn't there so I can't comment on what you saw but two things immediately come to mind.

1) Are you sure that the safety car deployments were for the incidents you saw and not for anything else (and don't take the circuit commentator's word for it unless you know that they had been told by race control).

2) You are obviously a knowledgeable regular so have ever been marshalling yourself?

[chippy minton]

I was there too, and i have to say that I completely agree. Many of the safety cars surely weren't truly necessary, yellow flags could have replaced many. I don't think that the use of yellows was too badly excessive, but often sessions were red-flagged where double-waved yellows would often have been sufficient. A good day's racing still, and I had a great time, so who is to complain?

[morwenna]

I think the marshals and officials did a fantastic job today in dealing with the numerous incidents and keeping all the resulting delays to a minimum.

I wasn't near Quarry, so can't comment specifically on incidents you saw, but as far as I remember the different safety cars and red flags were for incidents around the circuit, not just at Quarry. It's possible that the safety car was deployed for something other than the incident you had observed. All incidents, even a 'spin and continue' are phoned in, so the marshal 'constantly on the phone' wasn't necessarily asking for a safety car.

Hope you enjoyed the day, it was great that all races were completed, and most importantly that everyone stayed safe.

[Zider Drinker]

Originally Posted by gixxer

1, The use of the yellow flag on at least 5 occasions where the person who was using it seem not to have any idea how to use it when a waved yellow on the exit of quarry was displayed the same was being waved on the post next to the traffic light which should have been stationary,even though one observer did come across and tell the person.But once the marshalls moved around the same happend at avon rise surley if there's a newby they must watched and kept an eye as a lot of the time nobody seemed to know what to do.

Grixxer, I cann't comment on the flagging at the light on Quarry as i didn't witness (being in pitlane), but remembering a training day from the other year, a question about sighting was rasied, and with Avon Rise/Quarry In, and it was said that if Quarry In had waved yellows, then if deemed nesseary Avon Rise would also wave yellow, due to drivers not seeing Quarry In after coming over the brow of the hill...

Originally Posted by gixxer

2 use of safety cars

Why oh why after every car that went off at quarry into the wall was there a need for the safety car to be depolyed when at least three times the cars were not in any position of danger the chap who was seemingly constantly on the phone panicing about cars that had gone off we might as well have had gravel traps,never in the 37 years of spectating at combe have i seen so much flapping done by an obsever usually unless the cars are in a direct line like the vx220 then they are always left and deemed out of the way.

Very Very Frustrated by needless hold ups at some points of the meeting!!!!!!!

I'm sorry to be blunt but a number of us sat at Quarry today just could not understand why a saftey car was needed when it never has been used for the same incidents in the past!!

Ok, safety car today (Sunday), I'm sure Combe Marshal can confirm/add as he was Safety Car observer today. We had incidents...

DMN Saloon's or FPA Race 1, Have a feelin Safety Car was used, but cant remember which...
CC FF1600, 1 car in backwards Esses out & 1 car in forwards at Tower - Resulted in Red Flag.
CC Saloons, 2 cars in heavy at Folley. Resulted in Red Flag
FPA Race 2, 3 in at Quarry, Safety Car deployed then 1 middle of track minus a wheel at Startline. Resulted in Red Flag

There was some serious and major accidents today, thanfully nothing hurt/broken except wallets and cars. It's the first time in a few years I've known red flags at Combe. And you'll have notice the 45 minute stop to clear up the CC Saloons... Be honet as AF would say we did a "bloody good job" and still finished all our race's before curfew and thats even with the Historic F3's wanting to race on slicks in the wet

[Ian Sowman]

I wasn't at Quarry so couldn't see specifically what was going on there. It appeared that there was a few eccentricities over the weekend, from those trackside, drivers and race control alike - perhaps best to put it down to a long weekend for everyone.

The yellow flags thing interests me - on several occasions we had waved yellows at two successive posts at Camp, so I wonder if there's been some kind of 'policy' change on that. We also had the first DMN race being rolling started with the green flag for some reason (rather than the union flag), which meant that when there was an incident off the line we had green and yellows being waved at the same point.

Oh, and drivers still need to learn how to drive on a rolling lap and behind the safety car. I think clerks need to start taking action against those who don't do so, because it is starting to get embarrassing to watch on occasions, frankly.

[Grandslammer]

Originally Posted by morwenna

I think the marshals and officials did a fantastic job today in dealing with the numerous incidents and keeping all the resulting delays to a minimum.

Agree with that,today was rather extraordinary,although Old Paddock was relatively quiet

[Dutch chap]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

......which meant that when there was an incident off the line we had green and yellows being waved at the same point.

Would that be a problem?

[b1ackcr0w]

A few things that spring to mind instantly are:

The frequent use of the safety car. Take into account the conditions today. Wet conditions make it completely impossible to predict where cars are likely to go if they come off. The likelyhood of an incident increases hugely in the wet, and once on wet grass, cars have a nasty habit of not slowing at all before the hit anything. Because of that, if there is something that needs attention, especially at a corner like Quarry, if you're putting people the wrong side of the armco, the race has to be neutralised.

As others have mentioned, the deployments might very well not have been for the incidents you saw.

It's fairly universally agreed that deploying the safety car means less races end in a red flag.

A waved yellow flag in one sector does not preclude the possibility of there being a need for a waved yellow in the next sector. And I might add that there is a significant section of the sector between Quarry and Esses, that is not visible from the quarry spectator area. It is quite common for a multi car incident at Quarry to deposit it's results strewn across Quarry and the next sector.

Originally Posted by gixxer

never in the 37 years of spectating at combe have i seen so much flapping done by an obsever usually unless the cars are in a direct line like the vx220 then they are always left and deemed out of the way

I haven't been marshalling as long as you have been a spectator. But in my experience of being an observer, compared to spectating, there is a world of difference between what you see from both perspectives. If you're the guy on the phone who gets the call wrong, you risk the lives of the guys working the incident. I would strongly endorse the comments other posters have made, asking you to try your hand at marshalling before making comments that can be very hurtful.

[Nighthawk]

Having been a regular at combe for the past 6 years this post made me smile there are some comments i could make but won't
Just glad someone else has noticed things

[Simon S]

Only saw this from the drivers seat (did not get to spectate much )

Can't complain about the marshalling, for the 2 races (and qualiy) I was in, I could not see anything that I would consider should have been one differently (well I might have got a bit more gung-ho with the JBC to get the skip (ok, VX) out of the wall!)

only bit that intially supprised me (but reading above I can understand) was the way yellows were put out a post ahead of where you would expect them to be.

At the end of the day, if we drivers keep falling off then I we can't really complain...

[Suze]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Oh, and drivers still need to learn how to drive on a rolling lap and behind the safety car. I think clerks need to start taking action against those who don't do so, because it is starting to get embarrassing to watch on occasions, frankly.

I agree with the above, having been there on Saturday only. You don't start to race behind the safety car - and if the field had been bunched up properly instead of gaps out of Camp, they would've realised the SC was still out there - and if it was planned for the SC to do two laps, I presume this would have been mentioned in the drivers briefing.

The situation I didn't understand on Saturday was the SC for Bucheta's FPA in the wall at Camp, and later no SC for the FPA up against the pit wall. The marshals were running out lap after lap whenever there was a gap in the traffic to try and move the FPA by the pit wall further to safety but with no SC. Cue later in the session, someone running wide on the exit of camp and smacking into the stationary car.

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

A few things that spring to mind instantly are:

The frequent use of the safety car. Take into account the conditions today. Wet conditions make it completely impossible to predict where cars are likely to go if they come off. The likelyhood of an incident increases hugely in the wet, and once on wet grass, cars have a nasty habit of not slowing at all before the hit anything. Because of that, if there is something that needs attention, especially at a corner like Quarry, if you're putting people the wrong side of the armco, the race has to be neutralised.

As others have mentioned, the deployments might very well not have been for the incidents you saw.

It's fairly universally agreed that deploying the safety car means less races end in a red flag.

A waved yellow flag in one sector does not preclude the possibility of there being a need for a waved yellow in the next sector. And I might add that there is a significant section of the sector between Quarry and Esses, that is not visible from the quarry spectator area. It is quite common for a multi car incident at Quarry to deposit it's results strewn across Quarry and the next sector.



I haven't been marshalling as long as you have been a spectator. But in my experience of being an observer, compared to spectating, there is a world of difference between what you see from both perspectives. If you're the guy on the phone who gets the call wrong, you risk the lives of the guys working the incident. I would strongly endorse the comments other posters have made, asking you to try your hand at marshalling before making comments that can be very hurtful.

I'm only saying what i saw which i was not the only one to notice as mentioned above your comment,I never like to criticise Marshalls as i know without you lads and lasses we'd not have a sport but when there needs to be something said then i will say it,i have no intention to make comments to be hurtfull in any way but when i see things like this its bloody frustrating to have a meeting disruted by silly errors.And the only reason stopping me from being a marshall is a 12yr old who comes with me to all combe meetings and he will always come first its a family tradition we've supported combe since 1952

[yorkie1070]

Just like to say that although it was a rain affected day, i enjoyed a good days racing. I was at tower out and had only one incident involving a fford. The only bad thing i saw was on the Formula Palmer Audis when the safety car let the backmarkers through and they came flying through tower (still with yellow flags and SC boards displayed), with marshalls still dealing with the car at Bobbies! All at Tower Out where not impressed . Other than that a good day. Thanks to all involved.

[Ian Sowman]

That's a difficult one to manage - but they are supposed to be catching up with the SC train, so you can't blame them too much.

Perhaps there needs to be some kind of extra signalling in the incident zone to remind them to properly slow down through there and proceed at a much quicker pace around the rest of the lap.

[devon kev]

Originally Posted by yorkie1070

. The only bad thing i saw was on the Formula Palmer Audis when the safety car let the backmarkers through and they came flying through tower (still with yellow flags and SC boards displayed), with marshalls still dealing with the car at Bobbies! All at Tower Out where not impressed . Other than that a good day. Thanks to all involved.

I was flaggy on Tower-In and I seem to remember there was Double waved yellows at Bobbies during the s.c period

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by gixxer

And the only reason stopping me from being a marshall is a 12yr old who comes with me to all combe meetings and he will always come first its a family tradition we've supported combe since 1952

This year the MSA has introduced a new 'Cadet Marshal' grade, open to anyone between the ages of 11 & 16; looks like Castle Combe's just got two new marshals!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by yorkie1070

Just like to say that although it was a rain affected day, i enjoyed a good days racing. I was at tower out and had only one incident involving a fford. The only bad thing i saw was on the Formula Palmer Audis when the safety car let the backmarkers through and they came flying through tower (still with yellow flags and SC boards displayed), with marshals still dealing with the car at Bobbies! All at Tower Out where not impressed . Other than that a good day. Thanks to all involved.

And that's a perfect demonstration of why I think the whole signalling adopted for safety car use is fundamentally flawed. The drivers were behaving as expected and instructed. We have lost the ability (if we follow the rules - whichever version is being used for that particular circuit/championship/club ) to show clearly where the region is where we expect drivers to slow/etc. because there is something there for them to hit.

Drivers who hang back and do not join the train quickly need to be dealt with. A few black flags would quickly clarify matters. Similarly drivers being sent round from behind the safety car (or rejoining from the pits) and are travelling flat out to get the benefit of joining on to the back of the train, need to be absolutely certain that they will be able to see where yellows are displayed for an incident and not just for the safety car.

The MSA need to be looking critically at the flag displays used so that:

• Drivers know that there is a safety car out
• Drivers know where yellows are being displayed for an incident (bear in mind that all a driver in the train sees is waved yellows and all a driver sees who is not in the train is stationary yellows being replaced by waved at that sort of incident).

Just getting rid of the waved yellows "for the train" would be a start but I suspect that there would need to be some more subtle consideration.

Regards

Jim

[devon kev]

I don't think it was a case of the back-markers hanging back, more of when the SC was deployed

[Ian Sowman]

It was a combination of the two, to be honest. There were a minority of drivers in the GT race who really should have had a talking to, and perhaps they did.

The other issue is that half of the GT field was driving very slowly in a line before the SC came out, for reasons that I couldn't quite fathom.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JimW

The MSA need to be looking critically at the flag displays used so that:

• Drivers know that there is a safety car out
• Drivers know where yellows are being displayed for an incident (bear in mind that all a driver in the train sees is waved yellows and all a driver sees who is not in the train is stationary yellows being replaced by waved at that sort of incident).

Just getting rid of the waved yellows "for the train" would be a start but I suspect that there would need to be some more subtle consideration.

So how about a dedicated safety car flag, which would be displayed at every post, waved when the 'train' is in the relevant sector. The yellow flag would then be used for its intended purpose, warning drivers of danger on track.

That would cost nothing to implement. Look around & you'll find a suitable flag tucked away in some forgotten corner - the late, lamented 'Battenburg'.

[devon kev]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

The other issue is that half of the GT field was driving very slowly in a line before the SC came out, for reasons that I couldn't quite fathom.

You noticed it aswell

[devon kev]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

- the late, lamented 'Battenburg'.

That's if the moths have'nt eaten them

[Zider Drinker]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

That would cost nothing to implement. Look around & you'll find a suitable flag tucked away in some forgotten corner - the late, lamented 'Battenburg'.

Wasn't this flag the brain child of BRSCC SW Centre at Combe, and trial'd there first IIRC?

[Peter Scillitoe]

Originally Posted by JimW

Just getting rid of the waved yellows "for the train" would be a start but I suspect that there would need to be some more subtle consideration.

That has already happened. At both the recent HSCC Superprix, and last weekend's F3/GT meeting, at Brands Hatch we were issued with written safety car instructions which stated that only a stationary yellow to be shown at every post during the safety car intervention, with posts having the option of a waved yellow in the sector where the incident had occurred, or indeed at any other post where a new incident occurs under the safety car.

Common sense at last

Peter Scillitoe