F5000 for 21st Century

[andy97]

Notwithstanding the fact that there seems to be too many series in the UK, I would suggest that there is a gap at the top end of the National/ Club racing single seater spectrum and that gap could be filled by a modern interpretation of F 5000. EuroBoss, sadly, does not seem to have taken off yet but there are loads of F 3000 chassis around, including the post and pre one make era cars, that could be fitted with 5 litre V8s or similar production engines (Ferrari F50 or TVR engines anybody?) A sort of Monoposto on steroids or a similar concept to F Holden/ F 4000 in Australia. Lots of power without the complications of F1 technology and electronics etc.

Perhaps the cars could run as part of Euro Boss initially or as part of a newly restored F Libre series.

Anyone fancy it? Should make spectacular viewing.

[R59]

Euroboss' problem is simply F1, and the associated costs.

F3000 chassis wouldn't suit a 5Litre V8 and it's vibrations, installaton height, and weight.

Indycar/CART/IRL chassis is probably a better bet, and much more robust.

Great idea. S.Seaters that you can feel as they pass!!

Rob

[GolddustMini]

your talking about substantially re- engineering the back of a car to accept a new engine, gearbox and associated parts, you then subject everything in the car to increased loads and they either break or you re-engineer them, by whch time and cost you could more than likely be running in euroboss

unless ive missed a rule change i assumed old f1, IRL, CART, F3000 cars were allowed to compete in euroboss anyway, then again the last time i followed euroboss was when that scandinavian dude opened a huge can of whoop ass on everyone in a tyrell



i never worked out wether BOSS stood for British Open Single Seaters or Big Open Single Seaters.... although with it now being called euroboss rather than boss formula i assume its the latter

[GolddustMini]

infact ill answer my own question.....


taken from euroboss.co.uk


Cars

The following single seater cars can compete in the EuroBoss Series:



Formula 1 (1 .5 litre Turbo)
Formula 1 (3 litre)
Formula 1 (3.5 litre)
Formula 3000
Formula Nippon
Formula 2
Formula Atlantic
Formula 5000
Indy Car
Indy Light

Additional Information:


Formula 1 cars must have been built and raced before December 31st 1997.
Formula 3000 cars must have been built and raced before December 31st 1995.
Bodywork Any
Engine Any (Unlimited engine capacity)
Permitted modifications Any
Suspension Any except Active Suspension
Transmissions Any except Traction Control
Brakes Any except ABS is prohibited
Wheels Front Minimum 10" wide
Indy Light
Rear Minimum 14" wide

[kickstart]

Does anyone have any idea what sort of budget would be required to run in euroboss in an F3000,shoestring I mean.

[GolddustMini]

id assume the cars are fairly expensive to buy initially, the rebuild costs of an f1 type engines are going to be fairly high as well, due to the tolerances required and the price of the parts etc
then youve got transportation all over europe for the races and id assume the race entrys are gonna be quite high..


gonna be a bit of a bummer if u crash a benneton f1 car as well, doubt very much that they will make a new wishbone for you!


jamie

[kickstart]

The strange thing about F3000 is that there are so many cars for sale, whilst they are not in the FF1600 price bracket you can certainly buy a decent F3000 with engine etc and a decent amount of spares for £25k.
But you are probably right Goldustmini the cost is gonna hurt even on a shoestring. I just wonder how much it would cost to run the thing on the meanest of shoestrings.

[GolddustMini]

i think the reason theres lots of f3000 chassis for sale is bacause there are very few championships they are eligible for, unlike ff where u can run in countless championships in every country there appears to be euroboss(8 rounds for the entirity of europe or something like that) and not much else, thus making them less desirable

[Mackmot]

I think you would be looking at running costs of about £25,000 if you had a large garage already paid for, all your tools, equipment, 7.5t boxvan. If you have the knowledge to build and maintain it yourself SAFELY (remember it can kill you more easily than an FF) and you have a good mechanic to help you at weekends (£100 per day). You would need about one set of tyres every 3 weekends and pads about the same (because most that drive them are about 5 seconds per lap slower than the car can go)
and you would also need to do a couple of days testing before the start of the season.

[Mackmot]

The engine will last about 3000kms before you need a rebuild, 2000 if you were a proper driver. You can pick up Mugens quite cheap about 15k each, which is about the same as a rebuild.

[gttouring]

i love f 5000 and have been hoping for a resurgence (sp.)
but until then..
IndyLights chassis are quite beefy, they really used big cumbersome terrible sounding v6's so a 5.0litre v8 isn't too much of a stretch. this would be great- i also thought it would be a great idea for Toyota atlantics, stick big V8's in the back and let them really work their way into champcars.

[greenamex2]

Whilst F3000 rolling chassis a readily available (£25K seems a bit steep though!) the engines are not because keep buying for stupid amounts of money to convert to hillclimb or F1 spec.

I was trying to buy something F3000 or old F1 for my kit car and couldn't find anything less than £15K that probably also needed a £10K rebuild.

A better bet was the american Aurora V8's which could be had for £10K plus shipping etc.

[Lola]

A series was set up but with no takers 2-3 years ago.
Formula Chrysler??? with a Reynard chassis.

[JohnMiller]

There was a plan about a decade ago. 'Grand Prix Lights' was to be a British series with old F3000 (British F2 cars) mated to TVR's AJP V8 motors.

(Obviously) didn't happen though.

Having owned an AJP V8 engined car, I can state it was a shame as they:

Sound like a DFV,
Go like ****,
Don't need rebuilds every five minutes (although they are by no means cheap engines).

[kickstart]

Is it correct that F3000 are only eligible for Euroboss ?
The other thing that would concern me about F3000 or F5000 is the noise. Wouldn't most circuits be closed to you on account of the noise, would you only be able to test at Donnington and Silverstone ? I remember years ago entering a formula libre race in an old FF2000 at Lydden Hill and one of the other competitors was in an a recent F1 car, what fun and probably all punishable by death by the nimby's who live near race circuits.

[JohnMiller]

Sometimes have the like of them testing at Mallory. Bloody annoying too as they pass you down the straights and then hold you up (in an FF) round the corners While doing 50 second laps!!

[andy97]

I remember the TVR idea - Ian Flux tested the protype for Motorsport News. A pity it did not work out. I appreciate that EuroBoss still exists and I really hope that it goes from strength to strength but it must be massively expensive to run a relatively recent F1 car/engine etc. I remember reading an interview with Paul Stoddard some time ago when he suggested that running one of his F1 Tyrrells in BOSS cost £14000 per hour when everything was considered!!!!!! Notwithsatnding the engineering challenges of fitting a US 5L V8 in a F 3000 chassis, surely a "F 5000" type idea would work out much cheaper than that and give impressive performance per pound. I would not want to limit the chassis to F 3000 cars anyway, redundant CART, IRL, Indy Lights cars could provide equally good donors and variety could be provided by F 3000-TVR's anyway.

[kickstart]

It would concern me from a safety point of view racing an old F5000. The car has a serious amount of power, but I would hate to be involved in an accident in one. Don't they have pedal boxes that extend beyond the front axle, eg medium speed frontal crash = new ankles please.

[GolddustMini]

redundant CART, IRL, Indy Lights cars could provide equally good donors and variety could be provided by F 3000-TVR's anyway.

again isnt this euroboss.........

[andy97]

Golddust Mini

The point of difference between what I am suggesting and Boss, although it could be a class within Boss, is that the cars would use production engines with production relaibility, and rebuilds in the tens of thousands of miles rather than being required every few hundered miles at vast vast expense. Monoposto for big capacity production engines.

[GolddustMini]

Originally posted by andy97
Golddust Mini

The point of difference between what I am suggesting and Boss, although it could be a class within Boss,

that already is a class within boss...... :confused:

[andy97]

OK, I give in, EuroBoss already caters for what I am suggesting! But, no one is actually encouraging the take up; I have seen ex F1, F3000, CART & 3.5 Litre F1 engined F3000 chassis in EuroBoss but no big capacity, cheap production engined cars. These sorts of cars would be a lot cheaper, not a lot slower and could be a big draw - just like the original F 5000 concept, in fact.

[Rob29]

There is not a class in EuroBOSS for what you are suggesting.It is a series for old exisitng cars.Not new cars with big production engines.Or even old cars with new engines.Maybe such a class could be created as grids are not exactly full.However,this is something of a chicken & egg situation. Also who would sponsor something that could only aspire to a class win? I think that is the problem with the F3000 class in EuroBOSS,there must be hundreds of the things around.

[cannardd]

But EuroBOSS already caters for any F1/F3000/Indy car with any engine of unlimited capacity that you want to fit into it.
How many F1 or F3000 races involved cars with 4L engines?
Yet many of the EuroBOSS cars run 4L Judd Sportscar Endurance engines.
There is nothing in the regulations preventing you from taking a F3000 car and fitting a 5L V8 into it.
It may not be ultimately as quick as a 4L Judd V10 engined Benetton F1 car, but they regularly fail to finish and there is already a very wide speed differential between the front and the back of the EuroBOSS grid.