GARRA/ALMS/LMES fears...

[tblincoe]

i've started to notice a trend regarding road racing in the united states...

GARRA has created a formula that has been succesful in drawing both competitors and "manufacturers" back to the series. with quality teams such as ganassi, ptg, doran, and brumos commiting to the series for 2004 and cars being badged as porsches, pontiacs, toyotas, etc. it seems as though the series is on its way back up to the top of the u.s. road racing ladder.

much in the same fashion as GARRA, the LMES is adding new competitors to its confirmed entries every week, with new entries promised for next year too.

the ALMS in comparison is losing competitors and factory involvement and it seems as though there is no help on the horizon from u.s. manufacturers.

what worries me is that road racing is going the way of major racing in the world. the u.s. has the dumbed-down racing of NASCAR which would be the equivalent of GARRA as well as the technological but not well off CART which is the equivalent of the ALMS. europe has the exotic and technological glamour of F1 whose equivalent would be the LMES. it seems that this pattern is all too familiar.

i guess the only bright spot is that we in the U.S. would get our own version of the USGP every year when a bunch of the big-time LMES teams come to sebring, and possibly the petit lemans...

[gttouring]

let's not be so hasty or black and white,
GARRA and ALMS offer similar but different series and aims for their series (Bi-national vs. international)
Champcars, and IRL are really one split entity which maybe never be the same again- maybe.
ALMS does have factory supports and is a good field- keeping some sebring entrants is key but it is part of the swing- a good ALMS/GARRA union shold be made (as a Champ/Indy car) as all these similar seriess fight over much of the same market and resources.
And despite similarities between GARRA and NASCAR the subtle art of oval racing and big loud brash cars and hurried battle atmosphere of a CUP race is what does it, GARRA is simply trying to implement what works in Ovals for RoadRacing- and it is actually drawing peopler to them.
The U.S. now has too much of a good thing-
SpeedGT, trans-am, ALMS [LMP'sGTS,GT], GARRA[DP GTS{GTS/GT},'sgs'], Champcars, IRL, Speed Touring car, NASCAR-Cup,Trucks, Busch. redundancies and not to mention soo many feeder series (USf2000, FMAzda, Atlantics, Formula BMW, FF as always, Fran-Am, Fran-Am V6, Barber Dodge, NASCAR's winston west, busch north, ARCA, ASA -very cool though a little different)
The US has fickle fans and like nice packages and currently there isn't a good solid defined packages of racing there are many struggling and confused series playing king of the hill.

[Chevyguy]

Well answered GT.

tblincoe, good comparisons, but you shouldn't fear yet. I'm one of those who beleive GTS will be the magic stick for the ALMS. Also, if more R8 customers come in, Audi can keep ALMS afloat much like Porsche did for IMSA BEFORE it became big. Does history repeat? Not as far as I can tell, but I haven't been alive long enough to see much history take place.

[sgw2]

like the IRL, the threat GARRA has is to sap off the sponsors and entry list.

The problem ALMS has are those inflexible and sometimes irrational ACO rules and rulings.

ALMS has the better tracks and the real fan base - GARRA has no fan base to speak of. But the sport runs more from the passion of the owner entrants and so the cost of ALMS is a huge issue.

There is also the business model of IMSA-CART-F1-ELMS et al, where the promoter gets screwed. The NASCAR-IRL-GARRA model allows tracks to share in revenue and assures a profit, even if the stands are empty.

Mind you IMSA appears to be better and more sensibly run than CART was (the leadership was always high on emotion and low on rational business sense). But over time the same corrosive effect of a better business model may kill it.

[Fogelhund]

While the potential for GTS to be huge in ALMS is there, the cars never seem to materilize. If it wasn't for the hoards of Porsches and Ferrari's in GT, IMSA would be in serious trouble.

IMSA ought to be thinking hard about how to improve things, to attract more entrants. Perhaps working harder with manufacturers to provide more value for the costs, or even finding a way to use the ACO rules as a base, but with some flexibility.

Hopefully this downturn in the top classes is just cyclical.

[billnchristy]

I think the point edmondson made in his interview is very valid.

IF god created a set number of sportscar drivers than yes, GA would be stealing from ALMS and vice versa, but since there is the possibility of new drivers sprouting up everyday, the idea is silly.

Also the fact that sponsorship would go a long way in either series, I think soon we will see the whole deal sorted out and if ALMS stays around it will get the "bigger" sponsor deals (for the bigger budgets needed) and the GA series will get the "privateer" sponsors (basically what ALMS has now) for the lower cost teams.

[tblincoe]

i agree with all the points made here, my main gripe is that grand-am is drawing the teams such as doran and ptg away from the alms where they should be racing (although we can blame alms officials for pushing those two teams away). i just dont think there is room in the united states for two healthy sportscar series. this is mainly due to sponsorship and availability of quality sportscar teams.

its just a shame to see teams like doran and ptg racing in grand-am when they added so much to the alms and "true" sportscar racing in the past. i often wonder about what it would be like if aco could make up their minds on regulations so that there will be a little rules stability in the sportscar world.

i personally think that there is money out there to be thrown at the alms but people out there are apprehensive about placing their money in a car/program that could be absolete in a matter of 1-2 years (i.e. what happened to dyson with their mg lolas).

with some rules stability and a few solid car/engine options for teams to use there would be plenty of teams out there that could come up with the budgets that the alms requires (get new lola, dallara, and riley designed lmp1 cars with viable engine packages; lmp2 is doing good with the new and old lolas, pilbeams, etc.; gts vehicles such as the saleen, a new viper, the lambo, or ferrari 575; and the new gt cars like the new porsches, ferraris, bmw m3, and panoz esparante.) i am not gonna hope for a miracle and think that u.s. manufacturers might pump funds into something other than nascar but maybe they can jointly involve themselves by helping with engine packages, etc.

i mean there is a lot of things that can be done but it just seems as though the alms is standing still and garra is moving forward. if it weren't for the gts and gt cars (more so the gt cars) the alms would be in BIG trouble. no matter how much i would hate to see it happen, i think it might be a good thing for cart and trans-am to fold b/c the teams from those series that like to road race might breathe new life into the alms.

i feal as though 2004 will be an important year for sportscar racing in the united states...

[Liz]

WHY DO WE HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE SUDDENLY TRYING TO GET RID OF THE ALMS? Is it because now you can't stand around yelling CART IS DEAD?

There is nothing at all wrong with CCWS, ALMS or Trans Am. Sorry to disappoint you all.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by tblincoe
its just a shame to see teams like doran and ptg racing in grand-am when they added so much to the alms and "true" sportscar racing in the past. i often wonder about what it would be like if aco could make up their minds on regulations so that there will be a little rules stability in the sportscar world.

i personally think that there is money out there to be thrown at the alms but people out there are apprehensive about placing their money in a car/program that could be absolete in a matter of 1-2 years (i.e. what happened to dyson with their mg lolas).

A couple of notes:

1. Doran (and Dyson for that matter) were some of the founders of the USRRC rebirth (along with the France family) that became Grand Am. Doran has never wanted to run ALMS, and it was all he could do to keep Leinhard from running the season with his new Dallara. The accident at Sears point was the pretext, but I feel that Doran wanted to quit the ALMS pretty much right away.

2. Dyson's cars were always going away after 2005. As it stands the cars won't be obsolete, just illegal. The main beef right now is about IMSA promising that the cars wouldn't have to be modified beyond the 2003 spec, when clearly the promise shouldn't have been made based on new rules not being firm at that point.

3. Tom Milner goes where BMW puts him. It almost seems as if they (BMW, not PTG) want to go where they can change the rules to set their priorities. (First ALMS, then SWC...) I'm not sure why they won't go back to the ACO now, since they've received the restrictor break that they were clamouring for. I doubt that they'll get rules satisfaction at Grand Am any more than they did with ACO or SCCA-Pro. At least they got an overall Le Mans win out of the ALMS run...

[Fogelhund]

Liz, could you pass me your rose coloured glasses?

The GT class of ALMS is in great health, the other classes are presently stumbling.

Trans Am is in great shape, they expect 12 - 15 cars, of which half are Gentilozzi's, and that some regional guys will join them from time to time. That's without even taking into account the rival series starting up. They've got less then half of the number of cars they had just a few years ago, and really, due to the way the rules have been changed, the Jag is the only thing capable of winning. Most of the non-Rocketsports competition are/were fed up with Gentilozzi's management, and have left, or will. If anything buy a Rocketsports car wins this year, it will be a miracle.

Then there is CCWS, the money pit. I truly hope that these guys can find a combination of increasing revenues/decreasing costs to the tune of $85 million in one year. Of course, there never really was a money issue was there? How exactly does a series keep the same basic schedule, (therefore same basic expenses) offer no increased value and expect the finances just to fall into place? This is asking the teams to get big dollar sponsorship, on a product, that outside of the event itself, is basically invisible. Then there is the wildcard Gentilozzi. He certainly has managed to flush Trans/Am down the toilet, yet he is one of the CART saviours???

People aren't trying to get rid of anything, but there are some harsh realities that many people choose not to ignore.

[tblincoe]

first of all im not trying to get rid of the alms, i was just expressing my concern for the series. i've never once talked about cart in any fashion so i dont know what u are talking about ??

as for doran, i know of his situation regarding grand-am, but i have to believe that if the incident at sears point is treated properly doran is still racing the dallara-judd

regarding dyson's cars the situation u referred to was the one i was talking about.

then with ptg i agree with what u said paul. i was also baffled by ptg going to grand-am esp. now that alms has helped them out a bit with restrictors as well as the current situation in the grand-am gt class. i was almost positive that the advan-sponsored ptg machine we saw at petit was the mark of the return of ptg to the alms...

i dont want u people to think that i am against the alms b/c this couldnt be further from the truth, i go to at least 2 races a year including a cross country trip to sebring every year. i was just expressing my concern for the series and wanted to know if anyone agreed or could share any uplifting information.

[Patrick B]

As of right now there will be no Trans Am series in 2004 Liz. Since nobody has paid the SCCA for the rights to the T/A name yet- http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...361&FS=TRANSAM

Which is why a group of team owners plan on starting thier own series. Maybe come 2005 the TA name will return...

[independent]

As my name implies, I am not blindly supporting any series. But I do have a preference in what kind of cars excite me.

I almost laugh when I read some of these thinly veiled PR posts for the two series. You know the type "well, I like road racing but Garra has 15 new cars and is headed for the top", or "ALMS has lost all their teams and if all the drunk college kids weren't at Sebring..." Lets see, what else..."Doran and PTG are major teams and they headed for the greener grass", "blah, blah, blah, blah."

I have never posted here for obvious reasons. If I wanted propaganda I would go to official ALMS or Garra sites (IMSA, GARRA, RACESITE, etc)

But let me indulge you in what is the state of affairs in road racing. And what I see as the present truth, and the future truth.

I'll start with Garra.

Garra HAS had a surge in teams fielding DP's. I see today that Chase has bailed but this is to be expected when dealing with not only a new class but a new form of racing. GA wishes to have "close racing", "racing that is not for the traditional sportscar fan", "affordable, spec built cars to control costs", "racing for the casual fan who normally enjoys Nascar" , "no rule changes for ten years", "safety and closely monitored performance" , etc. Garra was designed and specifically controlled for PRIVATEER teams. In some ways a good thing for the teams, in some ways a bad thing for the fans. There will be a decent field to start this years 24 (notice I hesitate to say strong or memorable). There will be probably 15 or so DP's on the grid when the flag drops. This due to possible attrition in practice, unresolvable problems with news cars, etc. Is this a huge draw?.....to each his own, time will tell. For the 24 to be a draw in 2005 and beyond it will need to have a constant 30 or so DP's and a BIG increase in SGS/GT/GTS or whatever they call it. Outside of the DP's I don't have any adrenaline pumping over the lesser class. There is a Maserati Trofeo light but this is essentially a Euro one marquee spec series car that has been repainted and refitted for GT. And the team that is running it has already admitted that running the Ferrari in Garra is "too expensive for 2004." Not exactly good news for anything outside of DP's. I have not personally seen Dp's in person so I will reserve my opinion until I am qualified to make one. On paper I am not personally excited but then again I did not like the Panoz "batmobile" initially on paper. So, what is the point? Will DP's be a strong enough attraction to start a fan base? (and lets be honest here, Garra has no measurable fan base at this point). I think that if Garra wants casual Nascar fans to be their target audience, then they should start strongly cross promoting the series with nascar (duh). To this point I have never seen it mentioned in any capacity during Nascar broadcasts or promos. This is kind of crazy considering the Nextel Cup drivers that are expected to be in the 24 this year to help raise awareness and puts butts in the seats at Daytona. In my personal observation I am confused as to why France started a series and then kind of shoved it aside in marketing. The man is a marketing/promotional genius (he started a series of essentially bootleggers and turned it into the biggest sports draw in the USA.)I am dumbfounded as to why he is not making an effort to draw his Nascar base to the series he started for them. Because left to the traditional sportscar fans, sadly they will not spend the dollars on this oval/roval dumbed down series. If you think this is not true, then denial is not a river in Egypt.

The future for Garra? As I stated earlier, they will need to have a significant increase in DP's (since the lesser class will probably not attract exotics or world class teams of significant value. It is a privateer series.) The drop-off for traditional sportscar fans will be in about two years. Garra will not change the rules for ten years. You already hear certain people complaining that they are "sick" of Audi and Porsches. Can you imagine the same DP's with no "wow" factor running the 24 in 2007? This is the best it is ever going to be in terms of curiousity right now. New car type, New teams, etc. After this year it is going to get very status quo and redundant. If the DP's don't hit a home run at Daytona and if Garra does not get France to start pushing the series on the Nascar fans, I would be a little nervous for the growth of the series in the future. I would like to see success, if Garra can get Nascar fans in the fold then maybe they would also have an interest in traditional sportscars (aka ALMS) and road racing would profit as a whole.

I often see speculation as to the financial health of ALMS and Garra. Nobody has yet to post a report so lets be honest. France and Panoz could float both series for a hundred years if they wish. They both have wealth beyond imagination. They are both very succesful business men and know how to make money. It is not a "money war" where one could "squash the other if they wanted to." This idea is silly. They will both take losses up to a point (and I am not implying they are taking any as NOBODY here knows). To imply they would run themselves into the ground over a racing series is completely insane so could you just drop this argument?

[independent]

Now the ALMS:

ALMS has not seen a significant growth in LMP1 or LMP2 in the past five years. However considering the starting point of when Panoz took over I am encouraged that Factory teams have been involved. The 90's were a very low point in sportscar racing. After IMSA Camel was run into the ground, there were tumbleweeds blowing round the sportscar world. Why no huge surge in LMP1, LMP2 since ALMS began? Mainly because after the Bishop/Evans years there was a large degree of nervousness when the new sheriff in town said "I am going to stabilize this mess." And so far, Panoz has backed up his words with money and comittment. No one can dispute this. I often hear that ALMS is "limping along" or "dying a slow death". Or "no new teams and low car counts, or without Sebring its dead."
Well outside of opinion one can look at tangible points such as tv ratings and attendance. Tv-wise, ALMS is only surpassed by the INDY 500 and Nascar. This is a consistent outcome. Garra is not even measurable at this point. Will this change with the advent of DP's?, time will tell, no one knows. In terms of attendance, Sebring is growing (180,00 or so last year.) If you do even rudimentary math on the income generated by this event alone, the argument of financial trouble is ludicrous. And the Petit Leman is drawing 40,000 or so and growing. Again, do the math, Don is doing just fine financially. Another favorite argument "ALMS pays for their tv!" As did CART, as did Nascar, as did most in their formulative years. So as some report, even at a million a pop for nine races, its 9 million for marketing costs which is recouped probably just in vendors fees at Sebring. Big deal, who cares? But when the ALMS is seeing consistent, winning ratings for this cost, isn't that money well spent? The tv argument is lame. Also "Garra gets free tv from Nascar daddy's deal." Again, lame. Garra is going for casual Nascar fans so I would think France would want to get a freebie or two for his new series and its marketing. Good for him if its free, all the power to him.

Lets look at the cars and counts. ALMS has had growth due to a few factors but lets face it, Audi and Corvette racing have cranked up the credibility a few million notches. These are both in the top five of all time in terms of sportscar in class. Hate to say it but these are the good old days and in ten years people will be talking about these two much like the 962. Add to that a resurgance of marquees like Ferrari (first works factory built GT/GTS in 30 years), Bentley, Aston Martin, Lambhorgini, MG GT (works), etc. It is oftened pointed out that "they aren't real til they are on the track." This is fine but there is no question that they are coming. Whether in '04, 05, or 06. They are coming. So the "no cars, no factories, etc" is a point that will lose its truth quickly as time passes. And since the works efforts are most often timed to sell new cars and raise awareness, they will come and go as they always have. There will be great years and there will be lean years. But this is a crucial point to look at. ALMS is seeing a big surge in GT/GTS vs LMP. Although most traditional sportscar fans love the LMP's, in the past the lean years meant Porsches. IN the very near future, the GT/GTS fields will be populated with exotics that have almost as much a draw to the fans. Works Ferraris, Lambos, Saleens, Aston Martins get my blood pumping. This will keep the LMP draw in balance. As I said before, Garra is betting the farm on dp's, ALMS has a very strong plan B that will not erode attendance by much.

Now another silly point, "the LMES is hurting ALMS." The ALMS exists to provide a series for teams to prepare and develop for Lemans. End of story. Sponsors want the tremendous PR that a Lemans win provides them. End of story. Winning the Mosport, Lime Rock, etc is nice but not exactly a headline in the full page USA today ad for the sponsor.
Until this point the Euro teams had to either enter the ALMS or dance with FIA, etc in Europe. Now with LMES, they have a series to a) save money and run at home b) be on par rules wise if they want to run in the American series and sell cars (factory teams) in America. And this is another major difference between garra and ALMS. ALMS sells cars for the factories that fund teams, Garra doesn't and by its very design and business statement "discourages factory monetary involvement." So the only benefit of a sponsor is exposure. There is no Car that will move due to victories.
But the ALMS/LMES goal is exactly the same...to win LeMans. They are essentially the same people, same goals, same cars. To state that the LMES is "different", "not connected in any way", "will succeed where the ALMS fails" is another completely stupid point.

Another point that I find stupid. "look at all the DP's and teams, the ALMS is dead!" Well as I stated before Garra has seen an admirable growth in teams getting involved in DP's for this year. It is a great thing. But we are looking at 15 or so on the grid this year for the season opener. With Sebring still months away, there are 12 confirmed. As I also stated if this was a direct comparison as to the potential fan draw it would be a valid point. But the GTS/GT field in terms of curiousity and exotics in ALMS far outweighs this comparison. And you also have to factor in the cost/effort in acquiring a dp versus a prototype in ALMS. Anyone can purchase a DP and run it almost immediately. It is almost turnkey and as a spec series, development is limited and not really essential besides set-up and fine tuning. As most ALMS protos are full blown three year programs, there is so much more involved in design, manufactuer, and development. Staring with a blank sheet of paper versus writng a check for a race ready DP is apples and oranges. The growth of protos versus dp's will be much slower and deliberate. AS I have stated before, both have their place and hopefully fans, but to compare "car counts" when considering the much different factors to "getting it on the track" is another stupid point.

Finally, one last stupid argument. "Sebring would be nothing without all the Spring Breakers." The stupidest of all. I don't know about you but when I was in college, my Spring Break options were generally narrowed to beaches, drinking, lots of girls also drinking, drinking, sex on the afformentioned beaches, more drinking, more sex. Places like Ft Lauderdale, Daytona (where the 24 is held?), Panama City Beach, That place in Texas were the only options. I don't ever remember Sebring as being a destination for the package/bus deal.
What I do see at Sebring is a lot of 30-50 year old guys with $100,000 RV's and $50,000 fifth wheelers. And in the case of the hairpin on the opposite side of the track near the Chateau Elan....FAMILIES. I have never seen a car with a Harvard sticker roll in with ten college kids and "Sebring or Bust" soaped on the windows.
You do see the local high school kids cruising around in their ten foot tall jeeps on Friday and Saturday night but where are the college kids? I don't see any U of Ohio compounds or Delta Gamma cheerleaders prancing around. The Green Park is full of interesting types but again I see the same scaffolding year after year, the same theme compounds year after year, the same blow up dolls in compromising positions year after year. And for the most part, the same PEOPLE in their middle aged glory year after year.
If you have ever been to Sebring then the silly "drunk Spring breakers are the major populous" is as insane as saying the Indy 500 only does well cause the kids are still out of school. For the love of God, this is the most delirious of all.

Anyway, now that I have spent the better part of two hours trying to figure out my take on the current state of affairs in road racing, I need to do two things before I can make any more observations. See the DP's in person and decide for myself and buy my tickets for Sebring so I have something to compare it to.

[gttouring]

well spoken independent.
now your views on ALMS?
and Trans-Am? Speed GT/TC
i really am stunned at the scope and forsight you hasve displayed in a such an un biased manner, I wish we can all speak so matter-of -fact.

[independent]

I have been a fan of endurance racing for many years. Mainly LeMans types, Daytona 24, IMSA etc. My thoughts on these were based on these many years of seeing ideas, series, cars come and go and the reasons why.

I have watched Trans Am and others series on Speed but have not developed enough of an interest to begin to formulate any opinion on the future of any.

I DO think that Gentilozzi has some good ideas on the future of Cart (Champ or whatever they will call it.) It was a bloated series that had many faults in expenses. The principals involved are all succesful businessmen who know what the bottom line is and how to apply it to make a profit. I don't really have a preference to CART over IRL as to me they are a lot the same. Again, I am not a big enough fan to get involved with the politics, the axes they grind, or the nitty gritty of either. But it seems that paul has a dialogue and a history with the principals of IRL so maybe communication will allow both to define clear and separate paths and to enjoy mutual success.

[Fogelhund]

Originally posted by independent
Add to that a resurgance of marquees like Ferrari (first works factory built GT/GTS in 30 years), Bentley, Aston Martin, Lambhorgini, MG GT (works), etc. It is oftened pointed out that "they aren't real til they are on the track." This is fine but there is no question that they are coming. Whether in '04, 05, or 06. They are coming. So the "no cars, no factories, etc" is a point that will lose its truth quickly as time passes.

As you may, or may not note, all announcements pertaining to these vehicles specify FIA GT or LMES. Suggesting that these are coming to the ALMS is purely speculative.

ALMS is seeing a big surge in GT/GTS vs LMP.

GT is booming, but I have no idea where people are getting the idea that GTS is surging. Three cars total confirmed for 2004.

Although most traditional sportscar fans love the LMP's, in the past the lean years meant Porsches. IN the very near future, the GT/GTS fields will be populated with exotics that have almost as much a draw to the fans. Works Ferraris, Lambos, Saleens, Aston Martins get my blood pumping.

Works Ferrari's, Lambo's and Aston Martins, all committed to FIA GT, and to a lesser extent LMES. Hopefully we get to watch some of these races on TV, but suggesting that there will be these cars in ALMS at this time, again is purely speculative. GT fields will have Ferrari 360GT and Porsche, hopefully the Panoz is worthwhile in GT. (finally)

[independent]

"Add to that a resurgance of marquees like Ferrari (first works factory built GT/GTS in 30 years), Bentley, Aston Martin, Lambhorgini, MG GT (works), etc. It is oftened pointed out that "they aren't real til they are on the track." This is fine but there is no question that they are coming. Whether in '04, 05, or 06. They are coming. So the "no cars, no factories, etc" is a point that will lose its truth quickly as time passes.
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As you may, or may not note, all announcements pertaining to these vehicles specify FIA GT or LMES. Suggesting that these are coming to the ALMS is purely speculative.



quote:
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ALMS is seeing a big surge in GT/GTS vs LMP.
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GT is booming, but I have no idea where people are getting the idea that GTS is surging. Three cars total confirmed for 2004.


quote:
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Although most traditional sportscar fans love the LMP's, in the past the lean years meant Porsches. IN the very near future, the GT/GTS fields will be populated with exotics that have almost as much a draw to the fans. Works Ferraris, Lambos, Saleens, Aston Martins get my blood pumping.

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Works Ferrari's, Lambo's and Aston Martins, all committed to FIA GT, and to a lesser extent LMES. Hopefully we get to watch some of these races on TV, but suggesting that there will be these cars in ALMS at this time, again is purely speculative. GT fields will have Ferrari 360GT and Porsche, hopefully the Panoz is worthwhile in GT. (finally)
"
I could go through and post confirmations for these and the intent to contest the full LMES, LeMans and to some degree ALMS, but it would be speculation.
Sebring has confirmed at this time 2 575GTC's, 2 Saleen works cars, 2 Corvettes, Morgan works car, etc. As Sebring (and the 2004 series is months away) it IS pure specualtion at this point. And as I noted, it may not be this year, next year or 2006, but they will be here.

Aston Martin specifically addressed the US car market and their hopes to improve sales of their new models. Speculation would lead me to believe they intend to support their release of new models by running in the high profile ALMS. Lambhorghini is also interested in selling more cars in the USA. Especially with the mid-level (on a relative basis) Gallardo. I would speculate that they would be interested in running a car in the ALMS in the next couple of years. Ferrari is already confirmed for Sebring and with the advent of works 575gtc and 360gtc I would speculate that they would have a presence in racing in their biggest market. Will they run a full season this year? who knows but I would speculate that they did not develop these cars to run purely in Europe.

As I went into great detail in my post, EVERYTHING is speculation until its real. The problem lies that most people like to pick and choose their assumptions and apply it to some sort of propaganda campaign for or against their favorite form of racing. Personally, I like to take a step back and investigate for myself.

It is, after all, ones opinion. So whether you agree or disagree with mine, I said many times, ....time will tell because NOBODY knows.

[independent]

btw, I will decide for myself at Daytona.

[skycafe]

Great posts independent! And welcome!

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by independent
There is a Maserati Trofeo light but this is essentially a Euro one marquee spec series car that has been repainted and refitted for GT. And the team that is running it has already admitted that running the Ferrari in Garra is "too expensive for 2004."

From the GA board:

After racing three different Ferrari 360 GTs for two seasons in GrandAm, and winning the drivers championship twice, team championship twice, scoring the first-ever GT manufacturer's championship for Ferrari in North America, and setting and repeating a record for consecutive wins, there was little left to prove with the 360 GT. The Maserati Trofeo Light represents a new challenge for our team.

I will state that operating costs are not the issue. Ferrari/Maserati of Washington is an authorized dealer for both Ferrari and Maserati, and the new car helps promote the dealership. Operating costs in racing are substantial, but there's far less difference between one car and another than the casual observer might think. Many of the costs (travel, lodging, crew, etc.) are the same no matter which car or class is involved.

There's little point in chasing rumors and errors of fact on the Internet, but I would like to correct these statements. I'll post that correction here, for those who are specifically interested in GrandAm. I'd also invite all of you to visit us at either the Test Days or the Rolex 24, to see the new Maserati for yourselves.

David Seibert
SFoW

http://www.grandamerican.com/message...d=236&start=30

[billnchristy]

Independent. I think you will enjoy the DPs if you take them for what they are.

They (in my opinion) were not created to be god's answer to sportscar racing, they were created to make an even field that is competitive for as little cash as possible.

In that respect they have succeeded and are pretty fun to watch.

As far as being a "spec" series, that is not all together true. The spec. parts are things such as axles, side pods and critical but superfulous stuff as far as sponsors go. You completely have your choice on which chassis and engine you choose it just has to be approved.

Lastly, if you look at GARRA as a strictly privateer game than you could also consider this. Treat it as a grassroots style series. (I dont want to say amateurs because these guys are pros. through and through) There will never be a shortage of club racing in America or anywhere else. If you look at GARRA as that next step, club racing with money involved, it can only be a good thing. There will always be guys looking for the next level of competition, with GARRAs DP and GT structure a straight from amateur racer and team could easily compete. The GT class will probably be 100-250k when the cars are ready to go, that is not a bad price for professional competition.

This is not to slam on GARRAs teams and drivers at all. I have met a lot of them and they are no doubt professionals.

I have the utmost respect for club racers too, I am not the kind of person who sees calling something a "club series" a bad thing because people that club race do it for passion not a paycheck.

Hopefully some of this made sense.

[independent]

"After racing three different Ferrari 360 GTs for two seasons in GrandAm, and winning the drivers championship twice, team championship twice, scoring the first-ever GT manufacturer's championship for Ferrari in North America, and setting and repeating a record for consecutive wins, there was little left to prove with the 360 GT. The Maserati Trofeo Light represents a new challenge for our team.

I will state that operating costs are not the issue. Ferrari/Maserati of Washington is an authorized dealer for both Ferrari and Maserati, and the new car helps promote the dealership. Operating costs in racing are substantial, but there's far less difference between one car and another than the casual observer might think. Many of the costs (travel, lodging, crew, etc.) are the same no matter which car or class is involved.

There's little point in chasing rumors and errors of fact on the Internet, but I would like to correct these statements. I'll post that correction here, for those who are specifically interested in GrandAm. I'd also invite all of you to visit us at either the Test Days or the Rolex 24, to see the new Maserati for yourselves.

David Seibert
SFoW"


I was just going by a quote from the Grand Am official website in an official interview:


"Thomas Watts Asks: Will your team be able to defend the title in the newly revamped GT class in 2004 in the Ferrari 360GT or are you planning to race a winged Ferrari 360 Challenge in the new Super Grand Sport class, which is a separate championship class?

Cort: We are not planning on defending the title, as it is cost prohibitive to run this car and fight for the same finishing position as a SGS car which is a lot less to campaign.

Brent: Obviously when you have a championship team you want to find a way to build that success into the next year. We have discussed and evaluated with FOW running the 360GT car again, a 360 Challenge car and a Maserati Trofeo Light car, comparing all to the Grand American rules, Grand American future plans, the competitive machines and team, the costs involved, and, of course, the driver fun and development factors.
"

I am a little confused as to what was misconstrued here by the Grand Am official website. I think that I will contact Grand Am and ask for a full retraction and apology to FOW if they misquoted, misrepresented, or were directly responsible for this error which has caused a widespread perception of the reasons behind FOW's decision.

[independent]

In addition, I have been e-mailed the entire statement which was posted on a fan forum on the Grand Am website and edited by the member on this board.

"Purist,

Thank you for posting the link to the Ten-Tenths thread. I agree that it has some interesting and throughtful points, but would like to point out that "Independent" seems not to understand that the late Bill France Sr., Bill France Jr., and Jim France are three different people with three different roles in the creation of NASCAR, IMSA, and GrandAm.

More importantly, "Independent's" statement that "There is a Maserati Trofeo light but this is essentially a Euro one marquee spec series car that has been repainted and refitted for GT. And the team that is running it has already admitted that running the Ferrari in Garra is 'too expensive for 2004'" is factually incorrect in every particular.

After racing three different Ferrari 360 GTs for two seasons in GrandAm, and winning the drivers championship twice, team championship twice, scoring the first-ever GT manufacturer's championship for Ferrari in North America, and setting and repeating a record for consecutive wins, there was little left to prove with the 360 GT. The Maserati Trofeo Light represents a new challenge for our team.

I will state that operating costs are not the issue. Ferrari/Maserati of Washington is an authorized dealer for both Ferrari and Maserati, and the new car helps promote the dealership. Operating costs in racing are substantial, but there's far less difference between one car and another than the casual observer might think. Many of the costs (travel, lodging, crew, etc.) are the same no matter which car or class is involved.

There's little point in chasing rumors and errors of fact on the Internet, but I would like to correct these statements. I'll post that correction here, as the best way to reach those who are specifically interested in GrandAm. I'd also invite all of you to visit us at either the Test Days or the Rolex 24, to see the new Maserati for yourselves.

David Seibert
SFoW"

Although I am flattered that you sent my thoughts to this team I would hope that in the future you would post the entire response out of courtesy to them since it does contain specific accusations as to my knowledge of the origin of their new car as well as the validity of an interview posted on the Grand Am official website.The insinuation concerning the France lineage and my ignorance to their various roles in racing history I find somewhat puzzling, however to each his own. As I stated above, I will follow up on this misquote on the Grand Am official page and will also send FOW a follow up when this error has been corrected on the Grand Am official website.

[independent]

one more thing since I suddenly feel the need to source my information (which I don't mind). Since I have sourced the "cost of running" origin, here is the information directly from a FOW press release concerning the Trofeo GT and its heritage:

"The Scuderia Ferrari of Washington will reintroduce Maserati to North American racing in the Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series. The Scuderia, Rolex Series GT Champions in 2002 and 2003, will enter a Maserati Trofeo Light in the GT class for the 2004 season. “We wanted to return to the Rolex Series to defend our championships,” explained SFoW Team Manager Glenn Marquis, “and we wanted to have the right car for the 2004 season. We’ve just completed two weeks of very successful testing in France, including a full endurance test, and we’re absolutely delighted with the Maserati. The engine sounds just like the Maserati 450S of the past, and I think fans are going to love this car. It’s going to add a new element to North American racing.” Initial appearance for the SFoW Maserati Trofeo Light will be at the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona. The driver lineup, both for the Rolex 24 and the balance of the 2004 season, will be announced in early January. The Maserati Trofeo Light is a development of the Trofeo coupe used in Maserati’s one-marque series, and is built by Maserati Corse, racing arm of the Maserati factory"

FOW response when the member e-mailed my post to them:

"
More importantly, "Independent's" statement that "There is a Maserati Trofeo light but this is essentially a Euro one marquee spec series car that has been repainted and refitted for GT. And the team that is running it has already admitted that running the Ferrari in Garra is 'too expensive for 2004'" is factually incorrect in every particular."

I don't know where I misquoted or misresprented anything now that you see the source of my information. A FOW press release and a FOW interview. At any rate, I like to keep things honest and felt I should respond so the rest of this forum could see where my opinion had its basis in fact.