Bright - "Dedicated Fire and Safety Crews"

[Senna05]

I just noted on Speedcafe an interesting article from Jason Bright. It really got me thinkin.

Notso talks about the idea of introducing a dedicated fire and safety team, that V8 Supercars could bring to all rounds. He is also a little critical of how the marshalls on the track reacted.

To me, the idea doesn't sound too far fetched. A team of guys and gals who travel with the circus from track to track, who the drivers get to know and trust, that are professional and directly responsible to the category organiser.

And the idea isn't new - he has probably got it from his 2000 season with the CART Indy Lights. CART / Indycar (of old) had their own safety and rescue team that travelled to every race - including Surfers Paradise.

All of this said - the concept probably "shouldn't" need to be put in place. I think that the volunteers that put their hand up to assist in these events are the last true bastion of gentlemen's motorsport. Some of them do as many weekends a year as the drivers, if not more..

I ask those in the marshalling fraternity, and supporters alike - is this really needed, or a knee jerk reaction?

[ascarracinguk]

well looking at the videos of the start line accident id like to know where he thinks things can be improved...from the impact its 7 seconds until the fire crew are on scene, a further 11 seconds until the first extinguishers are on the cars, and another 10 seconds until the cars are put out...so thats 28 seconds from impact to fire out....where are they meant to improve exactly??? granted it looks like a few crew members jumped over the wall to help, but then who wouldnt with such an impact..

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

well looking at the videos of the start line accident id like to know where he thinks things can be improved...from the impact its 7 seconds until the fire crew are on scene, a further 11 seconds until the first extinguishers are on the cars, and another 10 seconds until the cars are put out...so thats 28 seconds from impact to fire out....where are they meant to improve exactly??? granted it looks like a few crew members jumped over the wall to help, but then who wouldnt with such an impact..

Got to agree with you. The fire crew member who we see in the video has done everything correctly, as far as I can see. There is no way that I am an expert on this subject, however he has calmly and quickly evaluated the incident on arrival and gone quickly to the source of the fire. I've only ever done some very basic courses in workplace fire safety, but one of the first things we are told is to analyze the situation quickly and calmly before racing around going crazy with a fire extinguisher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wUvMKUlFLo
A similar incident at another place on the circuit may have ended up completely different. The fact that it happened on pit straight right at the beginning of the race certainly helped averting a possible tragedy.

[GTRMagic]

I think we already have "dedicated" fire and medical crews.. just not permanently allocated ones.

ChampCar used to have the sponsored safety crew in those big, specialised SUV trucks... perhaps VESA can look towards this, if a benefit can be found...

[Just Do It!]

Wonder if a few of those airport-style foam jet units would help? Arrive, point, squirt, extinguished - all with minimal risk to anyone.

Just a thought.

[JC Ohope]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Wonder if a few of those airport-style foam jet units would help? Arrive, point, squirt, extinguished - all with minimal risk to anyone.

Just a thought.

Could that be a problem when the drivers are encouraged to get away from the cars as fast as possible? Yes it would put out any fire very quickly, but I doubt that anyone could get away from the fire if they were being hit by a torrent of foam from one of those trucks.

I was suprised how patetic some of those fire extinguishers looked to be, it didn't look like some of them would be able to put out anything pretty much? I'm probably wrong though

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Senna05

I just noted on Speedcafe an interesting article from Jason Bright. It really got me thinkin.

Notso talks about the idea of introducing a dedicated fire and safety team, that V8 Supercars could bring to all rounds. He is also a little critical of how the marshalls on the track reacted.

To me, the idea doesn't sound too far fetched. A team of guys and gals who travel with the circus from track to track, who the drivers get to know and trust, that are professional and directly responsible to the category organiser.

And the idea isn't new - he has probably got it from his 2000 season with the CART Indy Lights. CART / Indycar (of old) had their own safety and rescue team that travelled to every race - including Surfers Paradise.

All of this said - the concept probably "shouldn't" need to be put in place. I think that the volunteers that put their hand up to assist in these events are the last true bastion of gentlemen's motorsport. Some of them do as many weekends a year as the drivers, if not more..

I ask those in the marshalling fraternity, and supporters alike - is this really needed, or a knee jerk reaction?

we also have a dedicated safety car crew (albeit rotating occasionally). How many issues have there been there over the last few years with the comms etc?

a local crew that knows the track and how to quickly get from A to B i would have thought best? but then again Notso is called that for a reason...

[PVDA]

4 years ago I proposed that the V8 series should have it's own Safety Team travelling with the circus although it was mainly to improve on track recoveries of vehicles.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2041401

It's only taken 4 years and a large firey crash to bring it to the table once again.

The on board footage shows the flame in the passenger compartment which is a worry and the fact the driver got burnt hands is a worry as the gloves and drivers suit are supposed to overlap to prevent that .

[Langers]

Given how much foam was discharged for this incident, would there have been enough left around to deal with a pit lane fire or similar starting incident in R9?

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by PVDA

The on board footage shows the flame in the passenger compartment which is a worry and the fact the driver got burnt hands is a worry as the gloves and drivers suit are supposed to overlap to prevent that .

Not disagreeing with you PVDA, it is a worry for sure, however I think it's more to do with the gloves (and feet) of the driver being the most vulnerable areas in the event of a fire- It's just impossible to have the 4 layers of protection the race suits have on the gloves and feet as it restricts movement and mobility. Same goes for the light burns Karl received to his face- This was probably because he had his visor slightly open at the time.

It's been 11 years since we last had a startline shunt comparable to this, when forces upwards of 37G occur there's going to be total devastation to the area that is hit, and unfortunately this was in the most vulnerable part of a V8 Supercar. Like Larko said in the coverage yesterday this sort of accident is the last safety hurdle for VESA to get over, and hopefully this COTF will fix that.

In the end it comes down to the whole "motor sport is dangerous" speech. Much as the drivers might not think about it consciously, they are all aware of the risk of injury.

[redesp]

Considering the drivers need to "manouver" themselves in and out of the car, drivers are pretty much stuck untill the crews can put out a fair amount of flames.

Are the volunteer Firey's trained to assist drivers out of vehicles or is their primary concern putting the fire out?

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Chatters

It's been 11 years since we last had a startline shunt comparable to this

In V8Supercars but there are lots of these worldwide we never hear about or see via YouTube.

Originally Posted by redesp

Are the volunteer Firey's trained to assist drivers out of vehicles or is their primary concern putting the fire out?

A Firies primary concern is himself and his fellow marshals followed closely by the drivers involved.

The best thing to do is attack the fire in the car if the driver is still in the car as this makes it safe for everyone to get in and treat the driver.

If the driver has got out he becomes the medics responsibility.

You've got to remember the drivers are covered from head to toe in fire resistant clothing and safety equipment designed for events such as this.

If a driver is trapped and there is a spare marshal available squirting a foam extinguisher at the driver in the car to help cool him down while the car is being extinguished is a good idea, the closed windows on modern race cars makes this option a little difficult though.


As a side issue this kind of puts Balaclavagate into perspective from several years ago doesn't it.....

[oz_watcher]

Originally Posted by Chatters

Not disagreeing with you PVDA, it is a worry for sure, however I think it's more to do with the gloves (and feet) of the driver being the most vulnerable areas in the event of a fire- It's just impossible to have the 4 layers of protection the race suits have on the gloves and feet as it restricts movement and mobility. Same goes for the light burns Karl received to his face- This was probably because he had his visor slightly open at the time.

Need to remember the "layers" only work if there is a gap between them. Stops the inner layer transferring the same temperature being exposed to the outer one. In the case of gloves, boots and balaclavas , there is little to no air gap between the layers, so the heat transfer hits the skin even if the direct flame didn't. Nomex helps survive the flame, but the air gap helps survive the heat. In the case of the visor, open or not, there is always a big gap at the bottom of the helmet. Visor is more for debris protection.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

well looking at the videos of the start line accident id like to know where he thinks things can be improved...from the impact its 7 seconds until the fire crew are on scene, a further 11 seconds until the first extinguishers are on the cars, and another 10 seconds until the cars are put out...so thats 28 seconds from impact to fire out....where are they meant to improve exactly??? granted it looks like a few crew members jumped over the wall to help, but then who wouldnt with such an impact..

Agreed. Timings were all pretty good. Could have there been more marshalls, as opposed to V8 crews? Maybe, but more circuits/events struggle to get volunteers at the best times. If V8SC gives some $$, they'd have more.

Originally Posted by JC Ohope

I was suprised how patetic some of those fire extinguishers looked to be, it didn't look like some of them would be able to put out anything pretty much? I'm probably wrong though

Most extinguishers only last a few seconds. Bigger 9L ones last 20-30secs and can throw further for the first few seconds, but once the pressure dies they all turn a bit limp.

Personally I think driver comments that the teams build safe cars, overlooks the fact they are using thinner sheet metal outside the safety cage, which means anything outside the cage (eg. fuel cell) doesn't even have Ford or Holden's basic crash structures from their road car equivalents to protect these items.

If you all want a laugh. Read Michael Patrizi's Twitter comment regarding this incident and the response time, and then watch him at Albert Park firstly disobey officials, then waste time, and then do the dangerous thing of opening the engine bay cause he was looking for the kill switch.....:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKS6U7L0JI

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by PVDA

In V8Supercars but there are lots of these worldwide we never hear about or see via YouTube.

Actually, Mr Moffat was within a hairs breath of a Liberace the day before.. it was only a lucky move by Mr Ingall that didnt see the same thing happen..

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by oz_watcher

If you all want a laugh. Read Michael Patrizi's Twitter comment regarding this incident and the response time, and then watch him at Albert Park firstly disobey officials, then waste time, and then do the dangerous thing of opening the engine bay cause he was looking for the kill switch.....:

you'd expect different?

[Purist]

I think maybe a middle solution for the fire crew would be good. Have a small contingent that travels with the series, and provides expert instruction to the volunteer marshals at each track. One of the biggest things that NEEDS to be addressed at EVERY meeting prior to an event is that no marshal should ever cross an active or semi-active racetrack (semi-active meaning that there are cars still coming by that have not reached the back of the pace car train). The other thing is that all marshals should hold fast until all involved vehicles in the vicinity have come to a halt.

As for the driver safety/extrication crews, those should be designated groups who travel with the series to all events. Unless it's just a case of the driver needing a bit to undo all his belts before climbing out, you want a professional physician directing, or possibly participating in, the extrication/assistance of the driver.

And really, there should be a sports doctor on hand at the scene of any major incident. Remember that Mark Blundell climbed out of his car on his own at Rio, but collapsed moments later right next to his car because of his two broken legs.

[Senna05]

Interesting discussion - and PVDA - I can now remember you bringing this up!

I was personally thinking the response times were reasonable as well. I don't know if Notso's comments have been taken out of context (IE - of course it would be quicker for pit crews to jump a fence and run, than a crew to get their vehicle there, stop safely, get out, and get their equipment from the ute!) but within 10 seconds there was a mist of foam.

I guess we are lucky there was no side impact after the rear impact - if the door had become jammed, this could have been alot worse!

The points about fire marshalls who know the car, and fire marshalls who know the circuit are all valid. Maybe a 50/50 team is needed?

I remember an article from the late 90's with Fred Gibson admitting that some turbo cars had a "fire bomb" in the engine bay, that was set to go off in qualifying to cool the intercooler down - do we still have these? And is there room for one in the cockpit / boot?

[oz_watcher]

Originally Posted by Purist

As for the driver safety/extrication crews, those should be designated groups who travel with the series to all events. Unless it's just a case of the driver needing a bit to undo all his belts before climbing out, you want a professional physician directing, or possibly participating in, the extrication/assistance of the driver.

And really, there should be a sports doctor on hand at the scene of any major incident. Remember that Mark Blundell climbed out of his car on his own at Rio, but collapsed moments later right next to his car because of his two broken legs.

V8SC already has this:
http://www.speedcafe.com.au/2011/04/27/dr-carl-lee/

Originally Posted by Senna05

I was personally thinking the response times were reasonable as well. I don't know if Notso's comments have been taken out of context (IE - of course it would be quicker for pit crews to jump a fence and run, than a crew to get their vehicle there, stop safely, get out, and get their equipment from the ute!) but within 10 seconds there was a mist of foam.

If you watch the footage, you'll notice the trained fire marshalls not only assisting with putting out the fire, but also laying down foam to stop it re-flashing. Something the pit crew guys didn't do, and something Bright may not pick up if all he is looking for is guys moving fast panicking.

Originally Posted by Senna05

I remember an article from the late 90's with Fred Gibson admitting that some turbo cars had a "fire bomb" in the engine bay, that was set to go off in qualifying to cool the intercooler down - do we still have these? And is there room for one in the cockpit / boot?

All international classes (which V8SCs are) are required to carry a FIA approved plumbed in fire system - "fire bomb".

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Purist

One of the biggest things that NEEDS to be addressed at EVERY meeting prior to an event is that no marshal should ever cross an active or semi-active racetrack (semi-active meaning that there are cars still coming by that have not reached the back of the pace car train).

and pit crews should remain in pit lane as well

Did either driver activate the thier cars fire "bomb" ??

[porsche91722]

At least the incident at Barbagallo yesterday was handled better than this utter chaos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oLVx...eature=related

[ForumNick]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Did either driver activate the thier cars fire "bomb" ??

or.... thinking further.... shouldn't there be 'sensors' that trigger the Fire Bomb, if a fire is 'sensed' - given that the driver could be incapacitated (unconscious) and therefore unable to activate a 'manual' trigger ?

[peckstar]

obviously i dont know alot about how the fire crewss work, they did seem to do a good job though

but i will say fire crews are like a panadol in this case they are good at treating the symptoms, what you want to do is not get sick in the first place and then you dont need the panadol

apparantly COTF will help, thats good for the v8's (but not other classes.) can other options be considered also? more robust fuel bladder,

i notice this quote from karl in enews "i never even considered hiting the firebomb" to me thats a big issue, logically its not the first thing you think off when your life is on the line, can they be linked to a heat detector of some sort? (good idea forum nick) seems kind of logical, but maybe it creates issues?

[Trevor]

Was there an issue with the quality of Reindler's gloves, given the amout of burns to his fingers? I understand why his face was burnt, but I am suprised by the hand damage

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Was there an issue with the quality of Reindler's gloves, given the amout of burns to his fingers? I understand why his face was burnt, but I am suprised by the hand damage

just quoting Karl here "my gloves had melted to my hands"

also this"the suede seat had melted to my suit, and my suit had melted to the seat belts"

he a;so added removing the window net proved quite difficult (interesting with them now being more to the centre, remembering why they were introduced in the first place)

he just ran and all his piping (cool suit water fans radio) ripped and tore apart

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by peckstar

i notice this quote from karl in enews "i never even considered hiting the firebomb" to me thats a big issue, logically its not the first thing you think off when your life is on the line, can they be linked to a heat detector of some sort? (good idea forum nick) seems kind of logical, but maybe it creates issues?

Considering the firebomb is in the engine bay of the car would that have even helped?