Nascar's Impact on Champ Car's Future

[Snrub]

Did anyone else watch any of the Daytona 500 yesterday? I intended to watch more of it, but I ended up watching something else because I thought it was garbage and couldn't stand it anymore. They had their foots to the floor the whole time and their speeds varied by 6mph. They couldn't really pass except on restarts. It seems absurd that the "rear draft" plays such a huge role. Relying on "friends" in order to pass/succeed takes the point out of racing. The philosophy behind Nascar is to keep it simple and focus on the drivers, but at least for the restrictor plate races, it's almost worse than F1 in terms of the lack of emphasis on the drivers.

I'm not trying to start a fight, I bring this up to discuss a common point that we tend to bring up in this forum. We're always talking about how Nascar is making life difficult for Champ Car and how Nascar has the market cornered, etc. Think about it though, there are more people interested in motorsports now thanks to Nascar, it's a big sport like Football or Baseball. I can't imagine that every Nascar fan is perfectly satisfied with the series. I think that they might get into other motorsports if they saw something interesting. Imagine if they had a choice between watching the Daytona 500 or one of the Hanford device races at MI or Fontana? Don't you think at least a substantial portion would think that a properly executed Champ Car race on a similar track would be more entertaining?

So after that long winded lead up, my final question is can you see any other opportunities for Champ Car as a result of Nascar or things?

[Kicking-back]

NASCAR seems to be targetted as lowest common denominator racing - soap opera stuff.

[macdaddy]

It's too bad things got so screwed up in Vegas.
Next year, they'll be starting earlier and that will help.
And a new chief steward (whomever that may be) certainly won't hurt!

[Jordi]

We must not forget that Daytona and Talladega are the only foot-to-the-floor affairs in NASCAR. All the other races feature acceleration and braking.
The question is: What makes people watch NASCAR? The fact the cars are somewhat lookalikes of road cars? American drivers? Spectacle?

[macdaddy]

The fact the cars are somewhat lookalikes of road cars? American drivers? Spectacle?

Exactly. And one gigantic and well-oiled marketing machine.

[BootsOntheSide]

Marketing, spectacle and US drivers are a large part of it, but there's more to it. Continuity is a big benefit in NASCAR. Every year they race at much the same sequence of tracks, and each driver usually has the same team, car, sponsor and # - drivers will often refer to others in interviews as 'the #24' or 'the #43', rather than by driver name.

The roster of drivers NASCAR has is a big overall benefit - not only are they primarily American, but fans can build a real identity with one. No matter who you are, someone will be from the same walk of life as you, and fans can often follow their favourites from the local championships, through trucks or Busch, and know that they'll be supporting them for years. ChampCar and IRL have both treated their junior championships as an inconvenience, and they have small grids, minimal marketing, and all to often no drives for the stars. Teams in both championships have looked to F3000 (now GP2) guys in recent years, and as mentioned recently I feel it's important that sponsored rides for MIPS/Atlantics champions, or incentives for teams at the very least, are put in place to ensure that the next generation make it.

[JohnSSC]

Snrub:

Interesting.

You find the Daytona 500 (I did not watch, by the way, so please let's not have me painted as a "NASCAR Fan") boring because there was not a lot of speed differential, no passing except on restarts, drafting is key, etc.

You would rather watch the annual LBGP parade? What wasn't there in this race for the casual fan?

1) 4 lead changes in the last nine laps.
2) 22 lead changes among 12 drivers over the course of the race.
3) Parity - your favorite guy has a chance to win.
4) Driver/Team recognition. The fans know who these guys are, know which teams have been around (and will be around).
5) It is indeed close racing'

Now I am sure someone is going to read part of my post, make some assumptions and go on about the "driver skill" in CC because you have to make the all-important right hand turn and shift and clip apexes etc. I am not here to place a value on the relative level of skills needed to compete. I will say that it is indeed a great skill to be able to drive 3600 lbs of car at 192 mph with the next guy literally right next to you - as in making contact.

I have never driven an oval in anger, but have a lap or two on a paved 1/4 mile oval and let me tell you kids - it ain't easy! Oval racing is it's own genre - it's own subset of racing - look at how quickly Jeff Gordon went quickly in the Williams at Indy a couple of summers ago if you need some validation as to the level of skills the top guys have in NASCAR.

NASCAR is eating Open Wheel racing's lunch right now because it gives the fan perceived value and a direct interest in the outcome. Developing ways for the fan to be loyal not to the driver, but the Team (note the popularity of this or that car number rather than driver) is brilliant. Even the change in the Championship chase (which I think is ridiculous) worked brilliantly. Fans really could care less about a Hanford Device or it's impact on the handling of a CC car.

They pay for Spectacle. NASCAR give's 'em Spectacle in Spades.

CC gives us Nelson Phillippe. IRL gives us Ed Carpenter. Yippee 'o kai ay!

[JohnSSC]

Just to follow my thoughts a bit:

NASCAR has nearly perfected the "Bread and Circus" aspect of racing. Like I said, they give 'em Spectacle and plenty of it.

This is where Open Wheel here is getting their butts kicked. One of the gripes about NASCAR is "the cars all look the same." So do CC cars. Point to NASCAR then because they have more of them, and a larger percentage of the field has a chance at the win.

Let's look at the Championship:

In CC/IRL it is almost below the radar. In NASCAR you had the Winston and now the Nextel Cup, both were/are lavishly funded things that are advertised separately. The winning of said Championship is like striking the Mother Lode.

In re: the "Bread and Circuses" aspect. We can all sit here and cry great big crocodile tears about how much more skilled "our" drivers are (which is why they get their heads handed to them when they cross over) and the sheer delight of mastering right-hand turns, but look at where we as North Americans come from:

From almost day one in racing on "permanent" courses, the oval has been the pre-dominant track shape. Foyt, Andretti, Rutherford, Mays, etc all cut their racing teeth on dirt ovals. Every week thousands of Americans go to the local dirt/asphalt oval and watch the racing. Even before NASCAR became as big as it is today, auto racing in the US, taken in toto was and is THE most popular sport. Americans (for whatever reason) like their racing on ovals. NASCAR has merely taken that prediliction, refined it, packaged it and rakes in mega-bucks in TV contracts, ticket and merchandise sales. NASCAR then rakes in the most talented drivers: Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, the Busch Brothers, Tony Stewart, Jimmie Johnson and so many others. In fact, I will take those six in matched cars against any six IRL/CC regulars on whatever variety of venues we may choose and my only question is: "Which IRL/CC guy will come in seventh behind them?"

All the while we have TG having "visions" and the Three Amigos "rescuing the traditions established by CART (without, of course mentioning USAC, from which much evolved)." The true test of interest, Sponsorship, tells you everything you need to know about the state of open wheel racing here. Go, if you dare, to the IRL Forum and read Team Owner's posts about how little in the way on non-manufacturer $$ are flowing there as well. Then go to the "Silly Season" threads (especially the CC one) and read ad nauseum who, with what bushel-basket of money is getting what ride.

It is, boys and girls, a grim picture.

Now, before I am accused of being a shill for TG, or some sort of trouble-maker, or some sort of NASCAR partisan let me say that I love Open Wheel racing. I always have. Losing it, and we are, is like losing a loved one. In this case it is like watching a losing battle in the ICU. All that I have right now is a nostalgia for what once was and a sadness for what could have been and an incredible unhappiness that this idiotic "split" that resulted from some of the most self-serving, short-sighted decisions that any racing Series could ever make (and showing no sign of learning from past mistakes) is the final nail in the coffin.

And here we sit, with so few fans of this type of racing left and we have even the Forum split as if to underscore our own inability to recognize a mistake, to learn from it and then move on.

[The Snout]

It's a balance IMO. Have to be aware of the NASCAR or any other entertainment product, however, end of the day CCWS has to simply work on what they are doing.
Can't be looking out the driver's side window all the time at the others when driving.

John, on that very last paragraph about forums being split. Not that you are saying this, but I don't blame any of the fans whether it be CART Hatfields or IRL McCoys in all of this for the reaction. It's just an indication of the passion that as a whole we had/have for openwheel racing. IMO we were all let down by those on both sides of the fence who had the power to compromise long ago, but didn't.

[SPRacer]

NASCAR is indeed huge, and I think there are a lot of fans who follow if for the "soap-opera" stuff as KB said, and not for a true love and understanding of the sport. Soooo, I don't really think a well put on CC race run similar to a NASCAR race would draw as many fans over as we'd all like to believe (Isn't that kind of what the IRL was trying to do initially? I could be wrong).

We all know that person who knows very little about the skill and sport of auto racing, but is in love with Jeff Gordon. THey buy his hats and shirts, put a 24 sticker on their car, but can't tell a Lola from a Reynard and don't really care. I don't really have a problem with these people, since this is result of NASCAR's marketing - But I do of course wish that these people would try to love Champ Cars or any other racing as much as they do their beloved Jeff Gordon (who is in fact a great driver-I didn't mean otherwise).

[The Snout]

The thing too is what is defined as a successful sport or series. I think MotoGP is a great series, but it's hardly the most successful in terms of viewers and fans, it has heaps but not the most, yet I consider it a success.

My point is that if CCWS can become profitable, have teams that can be funded well year in and out and can basically pay for itself then it's successful. I don't see why anyone must beat NASCAR and then you are successful. I just think that comparing where CCWS needs to be in relation to NASCAR just isn't the way to go.

[Amar7605]

IMHO, what CC lacks is consistency. Drivers, teams, sponsors - it seems to change every year for the past 5 years. And NASCAR hs that consistency that the fans can follow. Even if drivers change teams or have new sponsors, the drivers have been around long enough that if there is a change people can easily follow it e.g. Ricky Rudd going to the Wood Brothers team.

And what NASCAR marketing has done is brilliant, which is marketing the driver and not necessarily the team. It is with the driver that people can relate to. What CC does, and basically all of open wheel racing, is that they market the team. Drivers can change, but you are suppossed to root for the team. I guess that's fine, and it's like rooting for a football team instead of one player. But Americans are funny because they need someone who they can relate to (I think someone mentioned that earlier). Promoting the team from the get go doesn't work anymore.

I hate to say this, but is it possible that what CC can do is have a marketing strategy that pits the American drivers against the other nationalities? This could have some legs, because Americans like soap operas and storylines. And maybe if there is one more engine manufactuer there could be a "Ford vs foreign competition" thing going.

These are some ideas that I am throwing out. Nonetheless, CC has a serious marketing problem. Very serious.

[macdaddy]

The Snout:

John, on that very last paragraph about forums being split.

I thought this had recently been brought up in front of the highest court? No use in beating a dead horse.

[JohnSSC]

macdaddy:

I would ask you to read the post again. The comment is a statement, not a crtitcism of the Forum. It is an example of where Open Wheel racing is these days.

NASCAR's popularity is the issue vis a vis Open Wheel. The drama between the competing Open Wheel Series' and the rift of the remaining fanbase is indeed a valid point in regard to that.

[Kicking-back]

Single seater racing in the USA won't be able to be marketed properly to the casual fan while two series continue to exist though.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

1) 4 lead changes in the last nine laps.
2) 22 lead changes among 12 drivers over the course of the race.
3) Parity - your favorite guy has a chance to win.
4) Driver/Team recognition. The fans know who these guys are, know which teams have been around (and will be around).
5) It is indeed close racing'

I'm not sure which is most astonishing - the fact that NASCAR's showpiece event produced these statistics, the fact that they are perfectly standard across the season, or the fact that some still regard the race as boring. I doubt Formula 1 had 22 lead changes or 12 different leaders across the whole of last season, and it certainly didn't have any races where 3 drivers had a realistic chance to win so close to the end. It shouldn't be hard to see why fans are more drawn to this than most ChampCar or IRL races, even before the other factors are considered.

Amar makes a key point regarding consistancy. Look at the 2000 CART grid. Ganassi ran Montoya and Vasser, Penske ran de Ferran and CastroNeves, Newman-Haas ran Michael Andretti and Christian Fittipaldi. Forsythe ran Carpentier and Tagliani. Teams such as PacWest and Arciero-Wells were still there, as were numerous races that no longer feature in either ChampCars or IRL.

The split is not the main explanation for excess driver mobility and team changes in open-wheel racing. NASCAR guys race to an older age, and are usually where they want to be, and where they are suited to being. Guys who were in CART in 2000 are now not only in the 2 open-wheel championships, but also in F1, Trans-Am, Le Mans-type races, Busch series and so on, and some no longer race. Even the teams that still exist often have completely different sponsors - the Marlboro Penske scheme will be gone after 2005, and only Ganassi will have cars that would be recognisable as Ganassi cars to someone who lost interest a few years ago. The make-up of the championships have changed, so that fans know that the 2004 champion may not have won on th 1999 roster of tracks. All of these things hurt long-time fan involvement.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Single seater racing in the USA won't be able to be marketed properly to the casual fan while two series continue to exist though.

Quite possibly because there isn't enough space for sponsors names (hides mouth behind hand and laughs) ?

[N I Tram]

I'm not the biggest NASCAR fan, but I'd have to agree that Daytona was fantastic entertainment that few open-wheel races last year could match. The fact that the field was full of recognisable and committed long-term driver/team/sponsor packages and was well-marketed is just a bonus.

Both championships have a lot to learn from NASCAR - firstly, drivers. Having lots of US drivers would be a start, but the biggest issue is that the promising young drivers aren't considering the open-wheel route - as mentioned both championships have awful ladder structures, and can't keep drivers for long enough. A lack of continuity in circuits is a related problem.

[fazzaz]

Boots, you've written one of the best explanations of NASCAR's success I've seen on these boards. The point so often missed is that it's not just about American drivers as such. I grew up in the days of the original Championship Trail, and I watched drivers go from the short tracks and modifieds through sprints to Indy. These weren't just names, they were drivers I felt I "knew", having watched them develop. NASCAR still has this; ChampCar doesn't.

[Snrub]

John, you completely missed the point though, the point is that I think there is an opportunity for Champ Car to do a similar kind of race, but better and still marketable to Joe Public. We've seen them do it in the past. It's a matter of getting the right ingredients together and if Nascar people enjoyed that race (which for much of it was no better than a parade), CC has an opportunity to offer them something better. Let me clarify, I did NOT say CC was better than Nascar, I said there was a weakness in what Nascar did that could be exploited by CC in the future to build the series. Finally I was hoping others might have seen other potential opportunities for CC. I was looking for some constructive thoughts on how to make CC successful.

You took what I've said and have gone on a big tangent, but due to shear volume you're forcing me to address your comments. If there hadn't been the yellow and Stewart hadn't have messed up then it would have been 2 drivers at the end with a chance to win, Gordon and Stewart. Baring something unfortunate like Stewart's mistake, Johnson had an outside shot. I watched at a few different points in the race and I saw one guy in the lead, Stewart. As for "anyone winning," there were 5-6 cars with a good enough setup to run towards the front. No one could have won it without someone driving directly behind them to facilitate a pass!

As for "which OW guy would run in 7th," that's pure BS. I'm not desparaging the Nascar guys, they're very good and I'm not trying to say OW has a better group, but to say Nascar has a complete lock on good drivers is non-sense. For crossovers, there was the recent IROC race, the OW guys had some issues, sounds like some bad luck, some lack of experience, some lack of familiarity with stock cars. @ the Daytona 24, some of the Nascar names you mentioned did not look particularly good, as well as some of the OW guys. Better yet, let's take Scott Pruett as an example. He's raced in OW and in Nascar to a lesser extent. Did any of the outside drivers hold a candle to him? I don't see anything to critisize about regarding Manning, Dixon, Tracy. Other OW drivers had problems, but even then they looked good at times. In general I don't think the Nascar drivers made their discipline look better.

On the weekend how many restarts did the driver you've deemed "superior" do before they finally managed to finish the race? I don't like to make that comment because it's unfair, but I think your comments are unfair given the aims of my comments.

As for the difficultly comment. I NEVER said ovals were easy. Whenever someone on this forum has bashed ovals as easier than road courses I've always stood up and disagreed. I never said stock cars were easy to drive. Drop anyone in that field in one of the top 5-6 cars. Take stratagy out of it, could they have run the same lap times as Gordon, Stewart, Johnson? The answer in an unequivical yes.

I've got a solution this problem, why don't you call up Wind Tunnel and ask Dave Despain why he doesn't like restrictor plate racing and you can ask him if he thinks CC is theoretically capable of running a better race on a similar type of circuit. Seriously. Presumable there is NO place for CC in the market because the racing can not be the equal or better of Nascar's in any scenerio and Nascar has all the drivers. Why are you interested in the series then?

[BootsOntheSide]

I think NASCAR is pretty close to having a lock on the best US drivers (or, to put it another (perhaps more significant) way, the best drivers you could've seen at your local quarter-mile track 10-30 years ago, and formed a lasting allegience with). In all honestly, only Allmendinger, Hornish and maybe Hunter-Reay are among the best 20 - the tohers are the NASCAR guys.

Thank you fazzaz for your very kind words. The most frustrating thing is the way people from around the world don't appreciate the reality of the situation - a generation was squeezed out and ignored, in favour of many drivers who jut took it as a second-choice after failing to reach or succeed in F1. The fact that many of these guys (such as Kanaan, Bourdais, CastroNeves, Dixon and Tracy) are so talented isn't really the issue.

[JohnSSC]

Snrub:

Not to be picky, but I really would like to see you quote where in any of my responses I am calling into question what you said or put words in your mouth regarding the driver skill comparison between NASCAR and CC/IRL.

You asked (and I paraphrase) what opportunities any of us saw to win over some NASCAR fans. My voluminous response was in effect: No.

Nowhere did I say that CC/IRL could not put on an entertaining show.

I did say that a large proportion of the NASCAR field has a chance to win. Obviously after 350 miles of racing that number is going to be culled somewhat, but be honest; how many Teams have a real chance at winning in CC? How many lead changes have we actually seen at Long Beach, for example?

We could bat around specific drivers all day long. Pruett, imho, was always a better closed than open wheel racer particularly after his big moment. The Daytona 24 Hour race, like any endurance race emphasizes equipment preparation as much as driver skill. I did not read much into the relative performances there as for many of those drivers it was a "one-off" into a very specialized racing environment. As far as dropping "anyone" into the top 5 or 6 cars at a NASCAR race and getting the same lap times as Gordon, Stewart, et al - well that is enormously unappreciative of the skill those gentlemen have. If anyone can do that one wonders how dim-witted Hendrick is to pay Gordon all that $$? Heck, if it were that easy I would be out there doing it.

You need to clarify the "restart" point - I did not watch the race so I am not sure what you are referring to there.

Dave Despain and I are in almost 100% agreement on restrictor plate racing. It is one of the reasons I stopped following NASCAR closely several years ago - I don't need to call him and ask him to restate a position that I largely agree with.

I have already stated, quite clearly, in this thread and others how I see it as far as Open Wheel racing's future is concerned. Having already done so in this thread, I am not going to do so again.

I have also stated why I still watch. It is all there still if anyone cares to find out why. In fact, I will say it (again) here: I love racing - all kinds - over the course of a year I watch at least a bit of as many different types as I can. I feel no compunction to have a "favorite" form or a "preferred" series. Further, if I think that a Series/Team/Driver is doing something good, bad or indifferent, I am hoping that I can be objective enough to see it like it is, communicate that and not have to apologize if it is not favorable to my or anyone elses "preferred" form of motorsport.

[norman-normal]

NASCAR is racing for the masses, of course its more popular. Sophistication allways has a more limited following; and accusations of snobbery.... Get used to it.

[The Snout]

Arrr norman, haven't seen you in ages mate, still a breath of fresh air.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Snrub

So after that long winded lead up, my final question is can you see any other opportunities for Champ Car as a result of Nascar or things?

I don't think that NASCAR has left CC any opportunities IMO. NASCAR has cleaned our clocks, and it isn't likely to change anytime soon. We are now officially NASCAR Nation.

NASCAR gives its fans what they want to see, year in, and year out. Every race is a spectacle, a happening, and they make its fans feel like there part of something great. They give you drivers and cars you care about, on teams you care about, and in venues you care about. They know there market, and they know there fans. Open wheel has amazingly yet to figure there market out. There all over the place, with no rhyme or reason, no plan and most importantly, no continuity! How can you expect to excite your fan base with no American drivers, little TV, small grids, different venues every year, no marketing and a sporadic schedule? Some of these problems have been with us for years, yet nothing is done.

Open wheel needs a plan, a direction, but I really don't see one coming. We will continue to sputter along, looking like a minor league team, compared to the NY Yankees...